No fun on the forum anymore

[joy54]

Without agreeing or disagreeing with the above, I do wonder about the future of Zone 1 considering only 24 people attended the event a low not seen since the inaugural, really unadvertised, 2004 Zone 1 Challenge.

Is this because of the "factions" that have sprung up which leave people feeling too intimidated to attend anymore, are people just bored with Zone 1 which has been broadly the same since 2005, are people overwhelmed by the Guinness length rules that are in place? Whatever the cause it is fair to say Zone 1 seems to be in trouble.

I can say that I personally did not attend because I had an exam which overlapped with Zone 1 and others said they had work commitments and the such like. Maybe if others were to post honestly why they did not attend we might be able to come to some sort of consensus on what would need to be done if Zone 1 is to return for 2011? (or are those who did not attend no longer on the forum anymore as Geoff seems to of hinted to above??). Whatever the situation, I certainly think the air needs clearing because the atmosphere on forum at the moment just sucks (I know Steeevooo posted similar concerns the other day about this which have now been removed).

[Wanstead]

FWIW if there's nothing on the forum that interests me then I don't read and I don't contribute. Sometimes weeks pass.

When I use "you" I mean the "general you"...

There are those who obviously look to this place as a social network of sorts. I don't think you can blame them for wanting to forge links with other like-minded individuals by doing Tube-related things. That's not my cup of tea and I'm not even interested in much that's not full-network, let alone darts, photos, etc, but let and let live?

Edit: I've just spotted Z1 2010's "Station specific rulings" and agree with Geoff on a WTF level.

I'm aware of the history going back to 2004 and earlier, though I'm not really part of it (excepting one venture last September), but if you go away for some years and then return, it's never going to be the same. There might not even be much you recognise any more.

This is the thing about groups: they keep changing. Nothing you can do about that.

The other thing about groups: there's always someone (often many) who's even more obsessed than you are or were. Then you see that obsession, see part of yourself reflected in it, which causes you to draw away from the very thing you originally loved. I hope that makes sense, in the spirit of "Look, I love a challenge but I'm not obsessed like these people who think of nothing else. To hell with it!" I've been there a few times outside of Tube Challenging...

[JoeGJ1984]

I must admit I only joined this forum relatively recently and enjoyed the two R15s I've participated in. I think it's a great little challenge; all people have to do is turn up at the start (and it doesn't take up the full day, unlike a full network challenge, unless you count the travelling times to/from London). You can't plan it, so beginners have more of a chance against experienced 'players'. I like the idea of a championship which means that people are able to take part semi-regularly (six a year; about one every two months). And each R15 is a separate event aside from the overall championship. As for the darts afterwards, I think it is a good idea. I wouldn't say it is absolutely necessary, but I think it is a good addition (involves doing something fun and even if you are no good at darts, as it is played in doubles, hopefully your partner will be more experienced and will be able to carry you).

Saying that, I do think the zone 1 challenge rules could be simplified. I say get rid of the first train rule - I say at 1pm, everybody starts walking (walking, not running - the clock hasn't started yet! No point tiring yourself out before you've started! All right, maybe speed up if you suspect a train is just coming, but even then it doesn't matter if you miss it.) towards the platforms. (FOr Baker Street and High Street Kensington, I don't see that it matters that people get the 'correct' train when train go from different platforms in the same direction. Keep it simple and get rid of this rule.) Do the usual starting of the watch when the door closes and stop the watch either when the doors open or you set a foot on the platform of the last station (either way is fine, but might be best to keep the GWR rules here). And I think, instead of the four hour rule, fix a time for the presentations at, say 5:30pm (this means that people know when it will take place and when they will be able to catch a train away from London if necessary). If people miss it, then tough - but give people a mobile number they can text their times to and they can be added to the final times. Or they can post their time on the forum afterwards and it be added to the final times (it's done on trust anyway, so I would say allow this). (I think the winners would finish well before 5.30 so a late addition of times will not change the winner or the podium places).

As for the meet-up place, I think The Railway at Kew Gardens is a bad idea - keep it to central London (otherwise time is lost travelling to and from the venue - I would never have made the presentation ceremony and got the last train back home if I had to go all the way to Kew Gardens - as it is I had to leave immediately afterwards). And the meeting before and drawing the station - I say you could replace that with using the generator that is used for the R15s - do it about a week beforehand and all meet at the specified station (for simplicity). If you do do the meetup and drawing the station, stick with Oxford Circus (you can get to it direct with one LU train from all the major mainline termini except Fenchurch Street/Tower Hill - but anybody using Fenchurch Street would not have a long way to travel). I say don't bother with keeping the meeting place/station secret (it was pointed out that the turnout was down, just put it on the forum and have done with it. Again, keeping it simple).

[Sam]

Looks like Joe should organise next years zone one then

[Root]

I read this thread a couple of days ago, and couldn't decide whether I should reply fully, briefly, or not at all. I came to the conclusion that, even though I do not take part in challenges any more, I am still one of the oldest active members here, and so I felt I should make a proper comment. It's just my two cents.

Here are the parts of your speech I agree or disagree with.

I think it started when bizarre alternative challenges were invented. There were a few fun alternative ones (heck, I even listed some of them on my own webpages at somepoint before Itook them down) such Zone 1 and Alphabet Challenge - clearly not good enough minority challenges for some people. No ... it would seem not, and just off the top of my head without daring to look (or being able to bear to) look I can recall certain names such as 'Snake', 'Mouse', 'Park' and 'R15' and 'R20'. And 'Cannon Street Run' .. seriously, who came up with that last one? You came up with the name first because it was funny, and then just fitted in a challenge around it. But I can't tell you with assurance what any of these challenges are.

What are you suggesting we do, ban people from taking part in those challenges? I find some of them unappealing, but I say "live and let live". Others should be free to do whatever they want to, and if there's a place on the internet to discuss them, then this is it.

The joy of a Zone 1 is that it enables people who don't have the time / money / energy to do an all-stations challenge, to come have a fun day out, without all the overheads and complications that a full network brings.

Here, I completely agree with you. The Zone 1 event takes place only once a year, and as the "prestige event" in the Tube Challenge calendar, it should be left unfettered by new rules and complications. But, to be fair, those suggestions began a long time ago, before you moved to the US - I remember because I was against them then as I am now - so it's not a completely new thing.

It got out of control. My favourite (and which I mean the thing that irked me the most) is one when someone wrote and complained that I had written BST instead of GMT, or vice versa - I don't care enough to check - and that I should be clearer about this and be more specific. I mean, AGH! Could you be more anal if you tried? Just TURN UP at midday local time, for goodness sake, use some common sense, and don't split hairs. But the splitting hairs continued, all through the debate of 'Where and when your last station should be, one you've travelled too, or one you've travelled from', debate. Myyyy goodness. My head hurt with that.

Agreed. We're a forum of, let's admit it, geeks, and most of us are very particular. It's in many of our natures to spot mistakes and correct them, but often it serves no purpose at all, and no doubt puts off a few people from wanting to become involved with us on this forum.

Oh ... and writing down times of each station as you go? Why? Seriously ... why? This is a Zone 1 attempt. No one is going to be checking your times after. Guinness aren't going to be calling you up afterwards saying 'Well now we've heard about this Zone 1 thing, and we've decided that we might make it an official record, but we can't do that unless you've written down your complete times, you didn't happen to do that, did you?'. No one is really going to give a shit. No one is going to ban you if you cocked up, or 'cheated' or did something stupid. No no no. It's just fun. Except that that over officiousness of it all is killing the fun off.

Again, I've never seen the point in doing this myself, but others should be free to. I've seen people logging times since I first attended in 2005, so this is absolutely not new, and you should not use it to criticise "the way things have become".

I ended up doing what I know you've been doing as well - going round all the stations and making notes of carriage and door positions. I'm turning my data into an iPhone app to sell to people who wanted to know the door positions as well (Yes, I am aware that several apps already exist for carriage positions, but none of them do door positions).

This is my biggest problem with your post, Geoff. You don't say so explicitly, but most of what you write, and other posts I've seen you make, suggests that you bemoan how easy it has become to do Tube Challenging, particularly the Full Network. Back in your day, you had to do so much planning & research, whereas these days anyone can look on this forum for the best routes and then go out and get lucky. Right? So why are you releasing an application that will, at a stroke, completely nullify the need for any research at all? You'll turn every wannabe-record-holder into an instant expert without even having to leave their desks. I guess real life, and profit, is more important to you than Tube Challenging (and of course it should be!) - but then why did you come here to have this rant?

(Interesting side note: When I came back for a visit to England in 2008 from the 'states to the Zone 1 for that year, I thought it was going to be fun talking to people who's names I'd seen on the forum but didn't know in person. After Zone 1 that day, I remember being upstairs in the Horse and Groom and everyone got together into their clique groups, and I was ignored and no one was talking to me. Social it was not. That's when I realised Zone 1 day had died.)

I just want to say that I remember talking to you before, during and after the Zone 1 event that year. I don't belong to a "clique"; I don't think the majority of people do. In fact, the thing I most remember from that post-challenge pub meet was talking to a few new people. I also remember having an enjoyable day, and not feeling like it had "died" at all.

I did the challenge and decided to do extensive webpages about it at at time when no one else really had - and out of that, the TV production companies picked up on it, created a minor media whirl, and from that came the TubeChallenge 'community' and forum. And you know what? We created a monster, that's what we did, one that is sadly ugly, one that could do with being put down, wiped clean, and a maybe freshly started over.

I accept that this might be an intimidating place for newcomers, but I still like coming here. It's become my "home" on the internet, where I can talk about anything from politics to sports to television to trains with a bunch of intelligent and interesting people. The vast majority of the members here are good people, and I'm glad to associate with them. I don't see what wiping it clean would achieve, personally - I've been at other forums where the same thing has been tried, and every time the number of active members has halved, with no new ones taking their places.

I have heard repeatedly over the last week about how there are cliques, or factions, within this community. If that's really the case, then why can't we talk about them openly, instead of scurrilously gossiping? Who belongs in which group? What are their "issues"; why don't they get along? It's fine for anyone to dislike anyone privately, but I don't like the thought of antagonistic groups within the community, when I have no way of knowing what's going on from my life here in Finland.

There are too many other things that my mind boggles at now. It fogs over at 'Tube Awards', with the Newcomer of the year award, the Quote of the year award, and 'Darts Supremo of the Year award'. Tell me, people: Is it OK to be on this forum and not actually be interested in or have a liking for darts? And if not, should we be changing the name of the forum to "The Tube Challenge and Darts Club forum", just to be clear?

So I'm tired now, of all this crap. I can remove myself from it and quietly get on with doing an all-station challenge along with many other people are who also aren't tied up in the forum, because it is simply no longer worth being here.

No pointless signatures proclaiming bizarre completed feats. No protracted threads about if a record is held for X more days, then it'll beat someone else who only had it for Y days. I can understand why a certain someone who I know wanted to get onto the WikiPedia page and screw with it, because he knew that he would have certain people hopping in their pants.

Unless there's going to be an event where people have to get their photo taken on the tube somewhere without a cheesy grin and pulling a 'thumbs up' pose for the camera. Now there's an alternative challenge that I would like to see.

Agreed. I think the darts have become too entwined with Tube Challenging. I'm glad there's a strong social element to Tube Challenging, but does it really have to be darts all the time? What if I don't like darts? Could we not play pool sometimes instead? Or maybe just, you know, sit down over some beers and talk?

I don't know why there need to be awards here. They feel so ridiculous. I also don't see the need for a Wikipedia page for Tube Challenging at all. And as for the stats... well, I said there were many geeks here...


Generally, I think it's good that you've aired your grievances, but I sincerely hope you stick around to debate them properly, rather than using your post as a melodramatic farewell. Nobody should idolise you, but as your website/media appearances led most of us to this place, you are inescapably a respected person around here. If you want to use that respect to have a positive discussion and try to sort out what problems we may have, then I will look forward to it wholeheartedly.

[Soup Dragon]

I think it started when bizarre alternative challenges were invented. There were a few fun alternative ones (heck, I even listed some of them on my own webpages at somepoint before Itook them down) such Zone 1 and Alphabet Challenge - clearly not good enough minority challenges for some people. No ... it would seem not, and just off the top of my head without daring to look (or being able to bear to) look I can recall certain names such as 'Snake', 'Mouse', 'Park' and 'R15' and 'R20'. And 'Cannon Street Run' .. seriously, who came up with that last one? You came up with the name first because it was funny, and then just fitted in a challenge around it. But I can't tell you with assurance what any of these challenges are.

What makes any alternative challenge more bizarre than another? I've just been flicking back through the forum pages from the early days and there were plenty of alternative challenges being suggested, including quite a few by yourself Geoff, I guess the difference is that a lot of the suggested challenges never got attempted. As for the challenges you've listed I will give credit to each person who created it:

The Snake - Hakan Wolge - initially started as a desktop excercise to work out how many stations could be visited without leaving the network or duplicating the same station twice (you yourself Geoff suggested a very similar challenge back in 2005).

The Mouse - Oliver Lewisohn - It takes in all stations within the Northern Line mouse, very similar to the Bottle.

The Park Challenge - Jamie Brown - Visit all stations with the word Park but has a unique twist that you have to take an external photo of each station.

The R15 - Ric Brackenbury - In my opinion one of the best challenges, no two R15's are the same and you get to take on runs and interchanges that you would never normally do in any other challenge.

The Cannon Street Run - Antony Brown - Yes sorry to say that this one was my idea It is an annual event which always starts at Cannon Street station, however each year it is a different challenge, 2006 Z1, 2007 Bottle, 2008 R15, 2009 Mouse.

Geoff, You'll be pleased that your idea of most stations in one hour (suggested in 2005) was incorporated in the 2010 Winter Tube Olympics as part of one of the events, it was a lot of fun and I think everyone enjoyed this challenge.

[Steeevooo]

Was going to post in reply to this, but I've got to say that I think that Ollie (root) above has pretty much encapsulated my response.

[tubeguru]

I agree with Nick.

[Soup Dragon]

I agree with Nick.

Are you turning all Lib Dem on us Neil?
Anyhow I agree with Steeevooo, Neil & Nick!

[Going Underground]

I was also going to reply to this and agree that Ollie has very much ecapuslated my response, so I agree with Steeevooo, Neil, Nick & Antony

Just one point that Ollie raised about it always being darts and how about pool for a change or sit down over a beer for a chat....
Well it is often 2 to 3 hours after a challenge before we play darts, having sat down prior and chatted announced the results etc...
I am not sure where any pubs are located with pool tables, certainly not Sam Smiths(the beer is very reasonably priced) and pool tables do tend to attract the "wrong sorts". Also you are looking at £1.50 a go I guess now and a game of pool would certainly take longer than a leg of darts..
However the TCDLC will take this on board when we next meet and it is certainly a possibility and fair suggestion
There is supposed to be a Sam Smiths pub in central London with a Bar Billiards table, so this may be worth looking into as well....

[Root]

I was also going to reply to this and agree that Ollie has very much ecapuslated my response, so I agree with Steeevooo, Neil, Nick & Antony

Just one point that Ollie raised about it always being darts and how about pool for a change or sit down over a beer for a chat....
Well it is often 2 to 3 hours after a challenge before we play darts, having sat down prior and chatted announced the results etc...
I am not sure where any pubs are located with pool tables, certainly not Sam Smiths(the beer is very reasonably priced) and pool tables do tend to attract the "wrong sorts". Also you are looking at £1.50 a go I guess now and a game of pool would certainly take longer than a leg of darts..
However the TCDLC will take this on board when we next meet and it is certainly a possibility and fair suggestion
There is supposed to be a Sam Smiths pub in central London with a Bar Billiards table, so this may be worth looking into as well....

My point wasn't particularly that I want to play pool - I'm hardly likely to come to any challenges anyway - but it would just be good to do some different things instead of darts all the time.

What is the TCDLC? The Tube Challenge Darts League Commission? I think that might be one of the acronyms Geoff was talking about. You could have just said "we"...

[Going Underground]

I was also going to reply to this and agree that Ollie has very much ecapuslated my response, so I agree with Steeevooo, Neil, Nick & Antony

Just one point that Ollie raised about it always being darts and how about pool for a change or sit down over a beer for a chat....
Well it is often 2 to 3 hours after a challenge before we play darts, having sat down prior and chatted announced the results etc...
I am not sure where any pubs are located with pool tables, certainly not Sam Smiths(the beer is very reasonably priced) and pool tables do tend to attract the "wrong sorts". Also you are looking at £1.50 a go I guess now and a game of pool would certainly take longer than a leg of darts..
However the TCDLC will take this on board when we next meet and it is certainly a possibility and fair suggestion
There is supposed to be a Sam Smiths pub in central London with a Bar Billiards table, so this may be worth looking into as well....

My point wasn't particularly that I want to play pool - I'm hardly likely to come to any challenges anyway - but it would just be good to do some different things instead of darts all the time.

What is the TCDLC? The Tube Challenge Darts League Commission? I think that might be one of the acronyms Geoff was talking about. You could have just said "we"...

Committee and above point noted, thanks

[tubeguru]

Bear in mind we have a berk and a tosser too.

[Sam]

Bear in mind we have a berk and a tosser too.

I can't even remember what they stand for... maybe there are too many acronyms!!

[Going Underground]

Bear in mind we have a berk and a tosser too.

I can't even remember what they stand for... maybe there are too many acronyms!!

Not forgetting the SOD as well!