Chelney (Morgan) line - tube challenge's days are numbered?

[mps247]

I was browsing around the net during lunch time and found an interesting proposal for the Chelsea-Hackney line. It's a little different from the ones that have come before, as there is no mention of the Wimbledon branch of the District line or the Epping branch of the Central line.

A nice map can be found here.

I didn't open up this topic to necessarily debate about the merits and problems with this line (although, if you wish to talk about them, please knock yourselves out). I wanted to ask the seasoned tube challengers: IF (and that's a big IF) this line is built, will this make the full network tube challenge impossible to complete in a day?

[tubeguru]

I had a cursory glance over the site in question.

I take this is one of those ideas that some tube fanatic had, and that will never be built due to no demand?

[hwolge]

I agree with Neil's sentiment here. However, purely hypothetically, I don't think it would set the record back more than perhaps 30-45 minutes! It would probably, somehow improve the current solutions for Richmond, and the Hackney part could actually solve the Walthamstow part quite nicely. I'd say: BRING IT ON!

For Zone 1 it would be an annoying change to add King's Road Chelsea...

[mps247]

I take this is one of those ideas that some tube fanatic had, and that will never be built due to no demand?

Probably, yes. Although one could argue that there would be high demand in the central section.

The reason why I bring it up is for a tube challenger's perspective. The Chelsea-Hackney line from Wimbledon to Epping would add relatively few stations to the current network, so would probably not prove to be much of an obstacle for a full network challenge. Other examples of possible extensions that may never happen are the Bakerloo line extension to Camberwell and the Victoria line extension to Herne Hill. Both of these don't add too much to the current network.

This is the first time I've seen a proposal where there would be quite a significant increase in the number of stations that would be brought onto the network, and where the extremeties of the line are arguably isolated from other underground lines, and was wondering if this would make the tube challenge impossible to complete in a day.

I think Hakan has answered my question though!

[greatkingrat]

It probably would not be a tube line anyway. Like Crossrail, it would be part of National Rail rather than London Underground.

[tangy]

This Hackney- Chelsea line is often mooted as "Crossrail 2" so is unlikely to be part of the London Underground network anyway.

[mps247]

From what I've heard, it could go either way. Building the line to National Rail standards would mean larger trains, but bigger tunnels to accommodate them leading to increased building costs. Building the line to tube standards would mean sacrificing train size to reduce costs drastically. Also, I think I read that tunneling under Piccadilly Circus could be problematic if the track is built to fit larger trains, which is why Crossrail will call at Tottenham Court Road rather than Piccadilly Circus. Of course, I might be mistaken.

Unlike Crossrail, which actually leaves London, there don't seem to be any plans for the Chelsea-Hackney line to cover anywhere outside the London zones, so I think it is more likely that it will be a tube line - whether it turns out to be (if it ever gets built) is another matter.

Anyway, I would say that the most optimistic estimate for completion of this project is 20 years. How many people on this forum will still be tube challenging then? Who knows. However, even if it is built, from what Hakan says, this generation will not be the last of the one-day full network tube challengers!

[nozzacook]

If it becomes a tube line then it will be a new record. As the record time has reduced by more than an hour over the last three years the time taken for completing this line would not be a problem..

Saying that all crossrail plans ive seen have been for london overground trains.

[jbom1]

I guess that the best way to estimate the difference in time would be to set up good routes with and without the new line, taking that map as a given (though I think extending the line to Kingston would be a sensible option).

Each of the end sections: Angel - Chingford and Victoria - Twickenham might be about 25-30 minutes, based on existing journey times. It's probably fair to assume that we can pretty much ignore Victoria-Angel as we can either leave it out it, or else substitute it for something else in Zone 1. In the Chelney diagram, both Walthamstow Central and Richmond have a connectivity of 3, which doesn't look particularly favourable. We can use the NE section without duplication to connect only two out of {Angel (Northern); Walthamstow Central (Victoria); and somewhere on the Central Line (say using a bus to do Chingford-Loughton)}. In the SW, we could connect Twickenham to Heathrow via Feltham, though sacrificing the use of Heathrow as a start or finish point.

What could we save? Possibly a GOBLIN (or similar) journey from WQR and a little of the usual duplication at the NE end of the Central Line. For an Amersham-Heathrow route, we could also save the second (though faster, using the limited stop Piccadilly Line) passage over the Hammersmith - Acton Town section, but only at the cost of some duplication; for mathematical reasons, this idea will probably apply to many routes that start and finish on the same side (east/west) of the map.

Without a really thorough analysis, I'm thinking that Amersham-Upminster might work well for this map, allowing one to use the proximity of the ends of the Chelney line to Heathrow and Epping, respectively, and also minimising problems with the earlier closing times of some stations that might affect an Heathrow or Epping finish.

My estimate of the net additional time would be higher than Hakan's, but still within a service day.

[palkanetoijala31]

Hm Chingford to Buckhurst Hill run bring it on.

[Starkey7]

I feel sure that Tangy will be able to furnish you with a complete bus alternative to that run!

[mps247]

I guess that the best way to estimate the difference in time would be to set up good routes with and without the new line, taking that map as a given (though I think extending the line to Kingston would be a sensible option).

Each of the end sections: Angel - Chingford and Victoria - Twickenham might be about 25-30 minutes, based on existing journey times. It's probably fair to assume that we can pretty much ignore Victoria-Angel as we can either leave it out it, or else substitute it for something else in Zone 1. In the Chelney diagram, both Walthamstow Central and Richmond have a connectivity of 3, which doesn't look particularly favourable. We can use the NE section without duplication to connect only two out of {Angel (Northern); Walthamstow Central (Victoria); and somewhere on the Central Line (say using a bus to do Chingford-Loughton)}. In the SW, we could connect Twickenham to Heathrow via Feltham, though sacrificing the use of Heathrow as a start or finish point.

What could we save? Possibly a GOBLIN (or similar) journey from WQR and a little of the usual duplication at the NE end of the Central Line. For an Amersham-Heathrow route, we could also save the second (though faster, using the limited stop Piccadilly Line) passage over the Hammersmith - Acton Town section, but only at the cost of some duplication; for mathematical reasons, this idea will probably apply to many routes that start and finish on the same side (east/west) of the map.

Without a really thorough analysis, I'm thinking that Amersham-Upminster might work well for this map, allowing one to use the proximity of the ends of the Chelney line to Heathrow and Epping, respectively, and also minimising problems with the earlier closing times of some stations that might affect an Heathrow or Epping finish.

My estimate of the net additional time would be higher than Hakan's, but still within a service day.

Yes, I agree with you - an extension to Kingston would be better. Perhaps you could start in Amersham and end up in Heathrow without too much duplication by getting to Richmond on the District line, traveling to Strawberry Hill, and then backtracking. However, this probably costs a lot of time and I think you would be better off just repeating the section between Acton Town and Hammersmith, as you have said.

Another option would be to take a train to Hounslow from Strawberry Hill, run to Hounslow Central, backtrack to South Ealing, and then go to Heathrow. I think this is also inferior - you waste too much time backtracking.

I was thinking about a train to Wimbledon via Kingston, but this would wipe out a relatively quick transfer between South Wimbledon/Morden and Wimbledon. A train from Strawberry Hill to Waterloo would take about 40 minutes, which is too long. I just don't like the idea of going to Feltham and taking a bus to Hatton Cross. If you are unlucky, it can waste a lot of your time, and could make or break your attempt. Of course, there are people here who are far more experienced than me, and I am sure they will tell me if I am mistaken .

[hwolge]

My estimate of the net additional time would be higher than Hakan's, but still within a service day.

My initial estimate was a very rough one. Having looked at it again, I think I underestimated the journey times involved. I also ignored the Watford junction extension. However, I do think that there are interesting new partial solutions, that I feel unable to discuss since they involve strategies for the current layout. Anyway, I'd like to change my estimate to 45-60 minutes (still ignoring WJ).

[jbom1]

Another option would be to take a train to Hounslow from Strawberry Hill, run to Hounslow Central, backtrack to South Ealing, and then go to Heathrow. I think this is also inferior - you waste too much time backtracking.

Oh, sorry - I was basing everything I was saying on the version of the map that had Twickenham as the terminus. Strawberry Hill to Hounslow obviously could be a little slow; although the change at Twickenham is only a five minute wait during the middle of the day, the journey becomes unreasonably long late at night on the current timetable. One can only speculate as to exactly how the Hounslow loop and Kingston loop services might be affected by the Morgan Line.

Backtracking to South Ealing (perhaps using the 65 bus from Richmond) is, I agree, an option. Nonetheless, it's only marginally faster than going to Heathrow first and then back to South Ealing on the Piccadilly Line, which could be used in the middle of a route allowing a finish out on some other limb of the network.