All stations in Greater London?

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miklcct
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All stations in Greater London?

Post by miklcct »

I am thinking about a challenge to visit all stations in Greater London, using rules as close to Tube Challenge as possible:

1. You are required to visit all railway stations, including Tube, National Rail, DLR, Tramlink and London Cable Car stations, within the Greater London boundary only.

2. A station is defined to be either a single paid area, which may span across ownership boundaries, or multiple paid areas without crossing property ownership boundary. This definition is necessary to allow consistency across transport modes, which means:

2a. In the Tube network, there are two Hammersmith and Edgware Road stations and both must be visited, as they are not connected otherwise by street level. Bank and Monument are one single station. Farringdon and Barbican are one single station as they are connected by the Elizabeth line platforms. Moorgate and Liverpool Street (Underground and Elizabeth line) are also one station, but Liverpool Street (National Rail terminal) is another station. In the National Rail network, Hackney Downs and Hackney Central are also one single station as they are connected in the paid area.

2b. There are 3 Paddington stations: National Rail terminus, Hammersmith line station, and Bakerloo / District / Elizabeth line stations. There are 4 stations within the King's Cross St. Pancras complex: St Pancras terminal station, King's Cross terminal station, St Pancras Thameslink station and King's Cross St Pancras underground station. There are 2 Liverpool Street stations: the National Rail terminal and the Liverpool Street / Moorgate Underground / Elizabeth line / Northern City Line station. There is only 1 Stratford station consisting of National Rail, tube and DLR and only 1 Kentish Town station as both modes are behind the same gateline.

2c. Wimbledon is a single station consisting of National Rail, Tramlink and Underground. Elmers End is also a single station as there is no boundary between the tram and National Rail platforms. Mitcham Junction Tram and National Rail stations are separate as there is a property boundary in between, with tram and heavy rail being using separate fare systems, similarly for Beckenham Junction as well.

3. A visit is defined by departing / arriving the station on a train in public service. The train must stop there, except if an emergency prevents the train from stopping as scheduled, but there is no requirement to board or alight the train. If the station is closed for construction work with no train services serving it, passing through is acceptable. If the closed station is a terminal station, it can be visited by other allowed means.

3a. Some stations only have limited opening hours or services. This must be taken account into planning. For example, City Thameslink is only open Mon - Sat, while Sudbury & Harrow Road has a limited service.

4. Only travelling on foot or on scheduled public transport is allowed. Taxis, private hire cars, or any forms of private transport such as bicycles and scooters are not allowed.

5. You must stay within Greater London boundary within the whole challenge. Travelling outside Greater London, no matter on foot or on public transport, between stations is not allowed. In particular, you can't travel on the Crayford Spur as it is outside Greater London.

Using the above rules, is it possible to complete the challenge in one day? If not, how many days are likely required? Also, are there any better definitions of a "station" for a challenge involving multiple modes of transport?

[EDIT by tubeguru - I added some spaces between points, to make it slightly more readable :) ]
Last edited by miklcct on 26 Jul 2023, 23:30, edited 1 time in total.
Nigel
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by Nigel »

Although not identical, I did something similar to mark my 60th birthday in 2018:
http://tubechallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3495
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greatkingrat
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by greatkingrat »

It takes a day just to do the Underground, so there is no way you can do everything in one day. I'm not sure it would be possible in two days either with the relatively infrequent service on many National Rail lines. Three days should definitely be possible though.

I don't see any reason to ban people from leaving Greater London during the challenge though. In a zone 1 challenge there are no rules stopping you going into zone 2 if you wish.
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RJSRdg
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by RJSRdg »

The fastest time for the current Tube configuration is (unfortunately!) a little under 18 1/2 hours, Overground Challenge takes 9 hours, the DLR 2, and the Tramlink Challenge 1 1/2.

So adding all those up comes to 31 hours, plus of course all the other National Rail lines.

However:

Amersham, Chesham and Watford are all outside Greater London, which knocks an hour off the Tube Challenge and maybe another half hour off the Overground. Woodford-Epping is also outside the boundary, so that's another half hour saved. But Woodford-Hainault is also outside the boundary, so it is probably necessary to double back to both Woodford and Hainault, which will add some time.

There is some overlap between the Underground and Overground challenges - Queen's Park to H&W, Gunnersbury-Richmond, and potentially Leytonstone High Road to Walthamstow Queen's Road.

Some of the stations are less awkward to visit by NR than by Tube or Overground - thinking of Kensington Olympia and Battersea Park respectively.
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miklcct
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by miklcct »

greatkingrat wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 22:52 It takes a day just to do the Underground, so there is no way you can do everything in one day. I'm not sure it would be possible in two days either with the relatively infrequent service on many National Rail lines. Three days should definitely be possible though.

I don't see any reason to ban people from leaving Greater London during the challenge though. In a zone 1 challenge there are no rules stopping you going into zone 2 if you wish.
This is to prevent people using lines outside Greater London as a shortcut as the challenge is intended to be conducted wholly within Greater London, similar to the 60+ card challenge which doesn't allow the use of any transport which isn't covered by the 60+ card.
RJSRdg wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 01:27 The fastest time for the current Tube configuration is (unfortunately!) a little under 18 1/2 hours, Overground Challenge takes 9 hours, the DLR 2, and the Tramlink Challenge 1 1/2.

So adding all those up comes to 31 hours, plus of course all the other National Rail lines.

However:

Amersham, Chesham and Watford are all outside Greater London, which knocks an hour off the Tube Challenge and maybe another half hour off the Overground. Woodford-Epping is also outside the boundary, so that's another half hour saved. But Woodford-Hainault is also outside the boundary, so it is probably necessary to double back to both Woodford and Hainault, which will add some time.

There is some overlap between the Underground and Overground challenges - Queen's Park to H&W, Gunnersbury-Richmond, and potentially Leytonstone High Road to Walthamstow Queen's Road.

Some of the stations are less awkward to visit by NR than by Tube or Overground - thinking of Kensington Olympia and Battersea Park respectively.
Moor Park is also outside Greater London as well, with the final station on the Metropolitan line before the boundary being Northwood.

There are some 24-hour train services within Greater London, especially on Friday evening. If used properly, it can be used to minimise the time taken, which means the best day to do this is probably starting on Friday such that the limited-service stations on Chiltern Railways can be covered during the peak, and maximising coverage during the Night Tube hours. However you need to be careful of engineering works closing stations making them impossible to visit on a Saturday as well.
jrparkin
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by jrparkin »

Although they can cancel Overground trains to Kensington (Olympia). I got hit with this when I was on my Acclimatisation practice when I stopped at West Brompton to get the Overground train
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by RJSRdg »

They can cancel anything to anywhere any time....

An alternative to one person doing it over several days would be a group event like "All the Buses" was - perhaps with one member doing the Underground, one doing Overground, Tram, DLR and Cable Car, and someone else picking off the non-Overground NR stations
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tintin
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by tintin »

Are there any services from St Pancras terminal station that stop at another station before leaving Greater London?

The earliest an EMR would stop would be Luton Airport...
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RJSRdg
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by RJSRdg »

That depends how you define "St Pancras Terminal station".

I presume that as you use "Terminal", you are not counting the Thameslink platforms as being part of the station?

However the Southeastern platforms are terminal platforms, within the spread of the Barlow train shed, albeit separated from and with a separate gateline to, the EMR side of the station. First stop out on EMR is Stratford International, which I presume would have to be visited.

If we count the separate gatelines as separate stations, then the Eurostar platforms also become a separate station - first stop Lille!
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miklcct
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by miklcct »

RJSRdg wrote: 02 Aug 2023, 23:14 That depends how you define "St Pancras Terminal station".

I presume that as you use "Terminal", you are not counting the Thameslink platforms as being part of the station?

However the Southeastern platforms are terminal platforms, within the spread of the Barlow train shed, albeit separated from and with a separate gateline to, the EMR side of the station. First stop out on EMR is Stratford International, which I presume would have to be visited.

If we count the separate gatelines as separate stations, then the Eurostar platforms also become a separate station - first stop Lille!
Yes. A ride on the HS1 from St Pancras to Stratford International can be used to tick off these 2 stations.
Obergine9
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by Obergine9 »

I'm guessing the end of the Epping Branch, Hainault Loop, and the Chesham and Amersham branches of the Underground would be excluded.

Could make this an even bigger challenge by including all the heritage railways within Greater London. (Ruislip lido railway
Hampton and kempton waterworks railways, London museum of water and steam and Post Office Railway)

All the incline lifts
Greenford
Farringdon x2
Liverpool Street x2
Millennium bridge

The PRT and Transit shuttle in Heathrow Terminal 5

and all the rollercoasters within Greater London, I think the only theme park within the boundaries is Chessington world of adventures.

Any other publicly open railways I have missed?
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Iain
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by Iain »

There's a short railway at the Acton Depot of the LTM that can be accessed on a few days of the year, and iirc one in Brockwell Park
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RJSRdg
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by RJSRdg »

There's also a miniature railway at Ickenham (I nearly ended up there by mistake on my FNC!) and I think some others but I can't just remember offhand exactly where the border is and don't have time to look right now.

Edit: The others that I'm aware of:

New Malden
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RJSRdg
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by RJSRdg »

There's also a station inside London Zoo at Regent's Park, but the rails don't go anywhere!
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Obergine9
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Re: All stations in Greater London?

Post by Obergine9 »

The railway in Ickenham is within Greater London.


I've compiled the running times for these minature and heritage railways, and it's looking like we've just about missed the shortest time they can all be done this year (24 Days from September 3rd to September 27th). There may be an period in April/May where they all align as well.

Thames Ditton Minature Railway: Open to public on the 1st Sunday of the Month (September 3rd, October 1st)

London Museum of Water and Steam: Train Days were on September 2nd and 9th, The only other days that trains are running in 2023 are during May Half term.

Ickenham Minature Railway 1st Saturday of the month (September 2nd, October 7th)

Harlington Locomotive Society: Second Sunday of every month (September 10th, October 8th)

Hampton and Kempton Steam Railway: It actually seems to be operating on the third week of the year during summer months (September 16/17th and October 20+21st)

London Transport Minature Railway at Acton Depot: This really limits available dates as it is only open 3 days a year in April, July and September. The next opening is September 27th.


Brockwell Park Minature Railway: Every Sunday from March to October

Ruislip Lido Railway: Open every weekend from April to October

Mail Rail Train: Open almost every day throughout the year.

Pondering about trying this next year.....
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