Reaching any station with only one change

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gasman
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Reaching any station with only one change

Postby gasman » 12 Apr 2006, 18:36

Right, this is really bugging me. I've seen it quoted in several places that Mile End is the only station from where
any London Underground station can be reached with a maximum of one change over, however with the exception of Chesham on the Metropolitan Line as 'through' trains only operate at peak times.

However, it seems perfectly clear to me that the same thing is true for almost every station on the Circle line (with the exception of Bayswater, Notting Hill Gate, High Street Kensington and Aldgate, which don't have a direct line to Whitechapel for the ELL). Am I missing something, or is that Amazing Fact About Mile End actually a load of baloney?

(edit) In fact, I think it works for every station on the H+C line too, although some of the changes get a bit crazy... Latimer Road to White City via Liverpool Street and that sort of thing.
(edit 2) Ah, no, you can't get to Kensington (Olympia) from the H+C. Damn you, Kensington (Olympia).

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greatkingrat
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Postby greatkingrat » 12 Apr 2006, 18:59

I think maybe the original statement was made when Ongar and Aldwych were still open, although even then Liverpool Street would still be a valid answer.

Actually there is only one station currently from which you can reach all the others with one change (including Chesham) but it is not Mile End.

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Postby moley » 12 Apr 2006, 19:32

No considering the Jubilee line connects with all others - any station on that line must be able to reach all others with one change.

Timing would be an issue to make sure that you get the through trains to Chesham on the Met and Olympia on the District and Roding Valley on the Central.

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Postby sweek » 12 Apr 2006, 19:33

Hmm, interesting.
If you leave out those few direct trains from Chesham, then there is no way it could be a station not on the Metropolitan line.

What I was thinking of myself a few days ago:
Every station (except Chesham I guess if you go by the same rule) can be reached within two interchanges from every other station, since the Jubilee line connects to all the other lines.

Edit: how did you post exactly the same thing on two issues, one minute before me?

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Postby gasman » 12 Apr 2006, 22:05

moley wrote:No considering the Jubilee line connects with all others - any station on that line must be able to reach all others with one change.

Timing would be an issue to make sure that you get the through trains to Chesham on the Met and Olympia on the District and Roding Valley on the Central.


Aha, didn't know there were occasional non-shuttle services to Olympia. That means you can add all H+C stations to the list too - the H+C line connects to all others except for the W+C, which is redundant in this exercise.

So Hainault - Woodford is a shuttle under normal circumstances then? In that case I can almost see where the original factoid is coming from. Never been round there, so I wasn't aware of that (and neither is the TfL Journey Planner, it appears).

Off to edit Wikipedia...

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Postby sweek » 12 Apr 2006, 22:13

I don't think Hainault - Woodford is a shuttle, it's just closed after 8 I thought?

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Postby gasman » 12 Apr 2006, 23:36

Oh dear, this is getting terribly confusing... I just inferred that based on what everyone else said.

Right then. If there are no shuttles on the Central line then the origin station doesn't have to be on the Central line, just so long as it connects. Assuming that we aren't allowed to count the direct trains to Chesham and Olympia which just make things silly, we need a station which is a) on the Metropolitan line to change for Chesham, and b) directly connected to either Earl's Court or High Street Kensington to change for Olympia. This leaves us with all of the Baker Street - Liverpool Street stretch as candidates.

Some desperate theorising to explain why Mile End might have been the answer: Was there by any chance a point in history when 1) the Ongar and Aldwych shuttles were running; 2) there was a direct service to Chesham all day; and (here's the kicker) 3) the Olympia shuttle terminated at Earl's Court? If so, Mile End would be the one and only answer. If you consider Bank and Monument separate stations, that is.

My head hurts.

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Postby jonny » 13 Apr 2006, 10:24

The way I understand the Roding Valley area is that there are some trains going back and forth between Hainault and Woodford (via RV) whilst others come in from Ealing Broadway and central London with the destination 'Hainault via NP', quickly change their destinations at Hainault and then continue on around to Woodford, they then repeat this in reverse (i.e. Woodford to Hainault via NP, Hainault to Ealing Broadway).
I can imagine the train announcer going something like "This is Hainault, where this train terminates. Stand clear of the doors please, the next station is Fairlop"

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Postby greatkingrat » 13 Apr 2006, 17:37

In normal operation there are no shuttles between Hainault and Woodford. There are 9tph from Ealing Broadway to Hainault via Newbury Park and 3 of these continue on to Woodford. In the past they were always signed as Hainault trains but now they say Woodford via Hainault.

There are also a few trains that come out of the north end of Hainault depot before the peaks and run Grange Hill - Central London via Woodford.

As for Olympia, there were through services to Edgware Road in the morning peak in the past, but these stopped a few years ago. Now all trains are shuttles to/from High Street Kensington, with the exception of the 2337 Kensington (Olympia) to Upminster service.

Going back to the original question, I think the best answer is Baker Street. This is the only station that is one change away from all stations at all times of the day.

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Postby tubeguru » 13 Apr 2006, 19:00

So, what actually ARE the stations from which you only need one change to reach any other?
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Postby standclearofthedoors » 15 Apr 2006, 19:45

Bit of logic here...
1. Because of The Chesham Shuttle it needs to be on the metropolitan line. End of.

2. Because of Olympia, it needs accesss to one of the district, piccadilly (EC) or circle (HSK)

3. Because of the ELL, it needs access to one of the Jubilee, H&C or District.

Which leaves everything between Baker Street & Liverpool Street. And if the MHE shuttle comes into being the only stations will be KXSP & Moorgate.

Tell me why I'm wrong.
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Postby tubeguru » 15 Apr 2006, 20:34

Point 1 - you could change TO the Met and pick up the direct shuttle to Chesham, in evening peak. I assume, however, that the criteria for this thing is to be able to do it at any time of day and not just when direct trains run to Chesham.

Point 2 - to get to Olympia you need to change at HSK or Earl's Court. So the start station must go to either of these. That means the start stations must be ON the Circle, District or Piccadilly.

Point 3 - Correct again. The only line which satisfies points 2 and 3 is the District.

Point 1 is the sticking point. I don't think whoever thought of this actually knew enough about the tube to make it foolproof. They didn't take into account the shuttle services. Plus, you can't change from the District to the Met in one change so the three points contradict one another.

Is MY reasoning correct here too?
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standclearofthedoors
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Postby standclearofthedoors » 15 Apr 2006, 21:46

Yes. That it can't be on the district, essentially. Hypothetically we should look at the Chesham service as the shuttle from C&L rather than the fast services at peak times. Likewise with Olympia. Bog standard services during weekdays.
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Postby tubeguru » 15 Apr 2006, 22:46

The start station cannot be on the District or the Metropolitan.

Proof: you can't change from one to the other in one go, so they're both out as starting possibilities.

You need to start by narrowing down the lines which intersect with ALL the others. If you ignore the W&C (as all two of its stations are on other lines), the only lines which you can start on are the Hammersmith and City and Jubilee lines (any line not connecting with the ELL is out until the ELL is removed from the system and we know the District cannot be a starting line from above).

If you're going to say that you must be able to get to any station on any line at ANY time of the day, the challenge is impossible, as Chesham is only reachable from the H&C with one change during evening peak. Similarly, Olympia is something else that can't be done in one change as you need to change at HSK or Earl's Court and neither are on the H&C or Jubilee.

So, if we ignore Chesham (or allow someone to do it in the evening peak) and Olympia (or have it as the only exception to the rule), the answer is "any station on the H&C or Jubilee lines, so long as it's not an interchange station that uses the line you wish to travel to (or you won't actually change trains) AND so long as you start off on a H&C or Jubilee train from that station". Phew.

So, more specifically, any of the following: Goldhawk Road, Shepherd's Bush, Latimer Road, Labroke Grove, Westbourne Park, Royal Oak, Paddington (H&C), Great Portland Street, Euston Square, Farringdon, Barbican, Stepney Green, Bow Road, Bromley-by-Bow, Plaistow, Upton Park, East Ham, Barking, Stanmore, Canons Park, Queensbury, Kingsbury, Neasden, Dollis Hill, Willesden Green, Kilburn, West Hampstead, Swiss Cottage, St John's Wood, Southwark, Bermondsey, Canary Wharf, North Greenwich or Canning Town.

Try to go to anywhere from any of those stations starting on the H&C or Jubilee, and you only need ONE change to get to any other station (excluding the Chesham shuttle).

Does that work?
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Postby greatkingrat » 16 Apr 2006, 10:42

Congratulations, you have managed to list almost every station except the correct answer. As I said before there is exactly one station that allows you to reach every other (including Chesham and Olympia) in one change at all times of day.

(off-peak there are only 9 stations that can be reached from Chesham in one change so it shouldn't take too long to work out)


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