Zone 1 interchange challenge

[Zoe]

Hi, I have an idea although it's not likely to be possible before the Bank/Monument complex re-opens in 2009.

The Zone 1 interchange challenge:

You must make an interchange at every interchange station in Zone 1, for the purposes of this challenge the sub-surface lines will count as a single line so getting off a Circle line train at Notting Hill Gate and waiting on the platform for the next District line train does not count as an interchange. You must make an interchange from Bank to Monument or Monument to Bank, you will not however need to make an additional interchange at Bank. The clock will start when the doors open when you arrive at your first interchange station and the clock will stop when the doors close on the train at your final interchange station.

[Going Underground]

Hi Zoe and welcome to the forum.....

This sounds like an interesting and somewhat different challenge, just when we thought that all the alternative challenges had been done...

A couple of questions come to mind.....

Do you have to visit ALL the stations in as well Z1 or just the Interchange stations?
Are you allowed to exit the stations at Bank Monument and do the connection at street level?
Does one change at Paddington count; i.e. Circle Bakerloo or do you have incorparte the H & C as well?

Here is a list of the interchange stations, please feel free to correct or add

Earls Court
Gloucester Road
South Ken
Victoria
Westminster
Waterloo
London Bridge
Embankment
Monument / Bank
Liverpool Street
Moorgate
Kings X
Euston
Baker Street
Paddington
N.H.G.
Bond Street
Oxford Circus
Tot Court Rd
Warren St
Holborn
Green Pk
Picc Circus
Leics Sq
Charing X
Elephant & Castle

Not sure if Aldgate / Edgware Rd count when different platforms are used for changes?

Blimey it was just tiring keying those stations in let alone changing at them all

EDIT E & C added to list...

[Zoe]

A couple of questions come to mind.....

Do you have to visit ALL the stations in as well Z1 or just the Interchange stations?
Are you allowed to exit the stations at Bank Monument and do the connection at street level?
Does one change at Paddington count; i.e. Circle Bakerloo or do you have incorparte the H & C as well?

You have to visit all the interchange stations in zone one AND make an interchange there although only one interchange is needed at each station and you do not need to visit any other zone 1 stations.

You may not leave the Bank/Monument complex or any other station, part of this challenge is working out the fastest route through the large station complexes and this is not always the signposted route.

You only need to change at Paddington from Bakerloo to SSL or SSL to Bakerloo, Paddington on the Hammersmith and City is not an interchange station.

Not sure if Aldgate / Edgware Rd count when different platforms are used for changes?

For the purposes of this challenge the SSL are considered to be a single line so you do not need to interchange at Aldgate or Edgware Road and Edgware Road Bakerloo is not an interchange station so no need to visit there.

[jbom1]

You may not leave the Bank/Monument complex or any other station

If I understand correctly, this means you have to stay within the system, like an ANYSRC single fare Subway Challenge in New York? Not one for Oyster PAYG?!

[Zoe]

If I understand correctly, this means you have to stay within the system, like an ANYSRC single fare Subway Challenge in New York? Not one for Oyster PAYG?!

Yes, a one day travelcard would be the best option. I never did understand why they did not allow a one day travelcard to be loaded onto Oyster, it would have allowed use on national rail for many people before now.

[jbom1]

Yes, a one day travelcard would be the best option. I never did understand why they did not allow a one day travelcard to be loaded onto Oyster, it would have allowed use on national rail for many people before now.

Yes, I agree completely.

[greatkingrat]

Elephant & Castle needs to be added to the list above.

I think this is a great idea for a challenge and we should give it a go sometime. It would be hard work though - 26 interchanges in quick succession would be like doing back to back all lines challenges.

[hwolge]

Great idea for a challenge. In particular I like the idea of not leaving the system during the challenge (if I understood it correctly).

But several questions remain:

When does the challeng commence and end?

My suggestion would be that:
1. You start the clock when you arrive at your first interchange (doors opening or foot on platform?).
2. You stop the clock when you depart from your final interchange (doors closing).

A question on Bank/Monument. Is this considered one station for this challenge? I'd like to leave Monument out of the equation and leave Bank with W&C, Nor and Cen lines to chose from. But then again, qince you interchange without leaving the system, maybe it should count as one.

Aldgate East is an obvious interchange, but it's considered the same line since they are part of SSL. How about that?

Also at Earl's Court, would a District/District change be allowed (between different branches)? Or would Pic have to be used. After all at Euston the Northern line is one line, but the two branches should perhaps be treated as forming an interchange or is Vic an implied party?

I'm yet to see a 100% satisfactory definition of an interchange station for this challenge. Of course, a possible, but undesireable definition would be to simply list them without any perfectly clear reason... However, I can see a quite few possibilities (of which I'm listing only 3) for a clear defintion of an interchange (leaving the Bank/Monument issue):

Definition A (most inclusive)

All SSL lines are considered one. Branches of the same line count as different lines. Different branches within a station is defined as having at least one immediate destination differing.
An interchange is any station with more than one line/branch.

Definition B1 (almost as inclusive)

All SSL lines are considered one. All branches of the same line count as one.
An interchange is any station with more than one line (as defined above) OR more than two adjacent stations within Z1.

This would exclude Aldgate East, but still include e.g. Tower Hill, HSK and Edgware Road (SSL)

Definition C (most exclusive)

All SSL lines are considered one. All branches of the same line count as one.
An interchange is any station with more than one line (as defined above).

This would further exclude Tower Hill, HSK and Edgware Road (SSL)

Furthermore there is the question of defining "making an interchange". With definitions A and B, this would slightly tricky. How do you make Tower Hill? I'd say you'd have to go into using "changing platform" or something to similar. That would open up the question about making Baker Street within SSL, since Met ahs its own platforms. "Changing directions" could work, but then again arriving to HSK from EC on the Olympia shuttle and continue clockwise would certainly feel like a change, but arriving on a Wimbleware train would not... However, with definition C it would be quite obvious that a "making an interchange" should mean to "change lines" and nothing less.

[Going Underground]

Elephant & Castle needs to be added to the list above.

I think this is a great idea for a challenge and we should give it a go sometime. It would be hard work though - 26 interchanges in quick succession would be like doing back to back all lines challenges.

Thanks added to list.....

[tubeguru]

Paddington on the Hammersmith and City is not an interchange station.

Being the pedantic bugger that I am, as well as something of a Paddington expert, I could point out that Padd H&C is indeed an interchange station, but only with the mainline station. After all, there is no physical connection between the H&C and the Cir/Dis/Bak station without "leaving" the H&C station and "entering" the Cir/Dis/Bak one unless you count the Cir/Dis/Bak, H&C AND mainline station as one big "station".

And if I were REALLY pedantic I could point out that the exit barriers from the H&C station are now situated on the overbridge at the mainline station and are manned by Network Rail barrier staff, giving the impression that the H&C line is more of an add-on to the mainline station than an interchange with the Cir/Dis/Bak station. That's the reason why the "ticket office" situated next to the old barriers doesn't sell tickets any more - you have to go through the new barriers to get to it!

Also, on the tube map the H&C station is shown by an interchange circle, even though that circle isn't connected to the Cir/Dis/Bak station by a black line, implying that it's more an interchange with the mainline station only as suggested above.

It's all a bit of a grey area, but I can see why you are omitting it from the challenge. After all, any sensible person changing from the Circle to the H&C would do it at er, Edgware Road ... erm, right.

Carry on.

[Zoe]

Great idea for a challenge. In particular I like the idea of not leaving the system during the challenge (if I understood it correctly).

But several questions remain:

When does the challeng commence and end?

My suggestion would be that:
1. You start the clock when you arrive at your first interchange (doors opening or foot on platform?).
2. You stop the clock when you depart from your final interchange (doors closing).

Yes, that is how I have it planned.

A question on Bank/Monument. Is this considered one station for this challenge? I'd like to leave Monument out of the equation and leave Bank with W&C, Nor and Cen lines to chose from. But then again, qince you interchange without leaving the system, maybe it should count as one.

There is a requirement in this challenge for an interchange from Monument to Bank. The inspiration for the challenge came from reading about a tube "Olympics" and from there I had the idea of running through the Complex from Monument to Bank, the rest of the challenge was developed from there. The plan is for this to be the first interchange, people will meet at Tower Hill and the board an empty District line train from the bay road at Tower Hill for a mass start when the doors open at Monument. From there people have the choice of 3 lines to and would do not need to visit the complex again.

Aldgate East is an obvious interchange, but it's considered the same line since they are part of SSL. How about that?

Also at Earl's Court, would a District/District change be allowed (between different branches)? Or would Pic have to be used. After all at Euston the Northern line is one line, but the two branches should perhaps be treated as forming an interchange or is Vic an implied party?

I'm yet to see a 100% satisfactory definition of an interchange station for this challenge. Of course, a possible, but undesireable definition would be to simply list them without any perfectly clear reason... However, I can see a quite few possibilities (of which I'm listing only 3) for a clear defintion of an interchange (leaving the Bank/Monument issue):

For the purposes of this challenge the sub-surface lines are considered to be one line and at Euston the Northern line branches are considered to be two different lines . As I said the "Olympics" were an inspiration for this challenge and part of it is negotiating the station complexes like SSL to Central at Notting Hill Gate and not the easier option of waiting on the platform for another train.

Furthermore there is the question of defining "making an interchange". With definitions A and B, this would slightly tricky. How do you make Tower Hill? I'd say you'd have to go into using "changing platform" or something to similar. That would open up the question about making Baker Street within SSL, since Met ahs its own platforms. "Changing directions" could work, but then again arriving to HSK from EC on the Olympia shuttle and continue clockwise would certainly feel like a change, but arriving on a Wimbleware train would not... However, with definition C it would be quite obvious that a "making an interchange" should mean to "change lines" and nothing less.

That is the reason I have used your definition C for this challenge, it's then very clear then what an interchange is. As I said above, the plan is to meet at Tower Hill and board westbound District line train from bay road for mass start at Monument, the clock starts when the doors open at Monument and from there you get a choice of 3 lines. The clock stops when the doors close after you have made your final interchange.

[Zoe]

Paddington on the Hammersmith and City is not an interchange station.

Being the pedantic bugger that I am, as well as something of a Paddington expert, I could point out that Padd H&C is indeed an interchange station, but only with the mainline station.

Yes, sorry if I was not clear, it's LU interchange stations only.

[tubeguru]

I knew what you meant - I'm just a troublemaker.

[Going Underground]

Well I think the rules are now clear and I like the idea of the mass/same start......

All we need now is for Zoe to come up with a provisional date.......

[Zoe]

All we need now is for Zoe to come up with a provisional date.......

I plan August 2009 as interchange at Bank/Monument is heavily restricted until then. I can press on with organising the event though as there is lots to do for it, do I need authority from tubeguru for this?