Thinking out loud

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RJSRdg
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by RJSRdg »

ANDY_JS wrote: 14 Nov 2022, 12:19 Oh dear. This is ridiculous from Guinness.

"Before 2021, if the system gained or lost stations and length, the record would be reset, as subsequent participants would not have the same course, and the first fastest verified time would be the new record. Now, Guinness was telling me the record for 272 stations must be based on the last one for 270 (15 hours, 45 minutes, 38 seconds) and they had imposed a limit of 16 hours — giving only 14 minutes and 22 seconds more for the two new stations."

https://londonist.com/london/transport/ ... -extension

According to this they won't consider any records of more than 16 hours, even with the Battersea Power Station extension. That's almost impossible, if not actually impossible.
I believe Guinness relented slightly and extended the time limit to 16 hours 30.
Personally, I think it's a shame they have introduced this rule as a network re-set previously gave those of us who are a bit less nimble chance to shine, and if the record is for the fastest time to visit all 272 stations, then it should go to the person who has visited 272 stations fastest (currently Andrew C, I think).

In theory, adding the Battersea branch to an existing route shouldn't add a great deal of time - maybe a little more than 14 minutes but not a massive amount. However if the route involves an evening Olympia, it's not just a case that the time spent visiting Battersea gets added on at the end.
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Iain
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Iain »

I thought they'd said 16:15. Personally I think this is quite achievable although it will require things going pretty much to plan as they did for the 15:45 (until the last train).

Personally I'd rather they'd set it higher and let the times come down naturally from there rather than leave it with no record for potentially a long period.
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Adham
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Adham »

Steeevooo wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 20:40
Golf wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 18:07 only impossible for those whom didnt work out how to get under 16hours :roll:
No, Adham said that to get anywhere near 16 hours is unlikely, so therefore that must be the truth - he speaks for all tube challengers don't you know?!
You seemed to be fine with James speaking for all participants when Guinness made using an Oyster card a requirement. Why is that, Wilson? Surely if Clive and Ronan managed it, it should have been simple for anyone. Especially a team as formidable as yours, for whom the system is apparently infallible.

Screenshot 2023-01-03 234031.png
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Last edited by Adham on 12 Jan 2023, 01:41, edited 1 time in total.
ANDY_JS
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by ANDY_JS »

I didn't know they'd made using an Oyster card compulsory. I usually try to use a paper day ticket because it means you don't get fined for being in the system too long. This is going to make it even more expensive to do the challenge.
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Golf »

Especially a team as formidable as yours, for whom the system is apparently infallible. just because we are the BEST!
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Steeevooo
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Steeevooo »

Adham wrote: 04 Jan 2023, 00:26
Steeevooo wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 20:40
Golf wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 18:07 only impossible for those whom didnt work out how to get under 16hours :roll:
No, Adham said that to get anywhere near 16 hours is unlikely, so therefore that must be the truth - he speaks for all tube challengers don't you know?!
You seemed to be fine with James speaking for all participants when Guinness made using an Oyster card a requirement. Why is that? Surely if Clive and Ronan managed it, it should have been simple for anyone. Especially a team as formidable as yours, for whom the system is apparently infallible.


Screenshot 2023-01-03 234031.png
You've managed to screenshot a post that wasn't made by me, that is over 7 years old, and in a thread in which I made precisely zero contributions. How does this suggest anything on my behalf?

Disregarding the above, you are the person that set up a petition bemoaning the fact that "They [Guinness World Records] have not consulted us about changes to this record". As the creator of said petition (https://www.change.org/p/guinness-world ... ro-records), this suggests your belief that Guinness World Records should consult yourself (as you haven't outlined who else "us" would/should include) before making any changes - ergo that you are the de facto spokesman or representative for all challengers.

Regarding your last point, do I believe that sub 16 hours is still possible on today's configuration? Yes. Have I gone out there and tried to do it? No. Have I done any Full Network Challenges since getting my last record? No. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible though.
Also, regarding the "formidability" of the team, I don't recall you complaining on November 19th, 2013. Perhaps you should remind me how all of your world record attempts prior to that date had gone? [Note to Peter, Tangy and Glen - this is in no way minimising or diminishing your contributions!!]
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Adham »

It suggests that you were not against Andi's complaint to Guinness about Oyster cards being obligatory. Neither was anyone else, possibly aside from Clive who said he didn't think it unreasonable, although at least he had the choice of whether to use one if he attempted again. But that rule, and others that they have stupidly tightened in recent years, unfortunately were and are technically within our control, as much of an inconvenience as they might present. The minimum requirement rule is not within our control; the time we achieve relies on the running of the system, which we cannot influence.

I see what you mean a bit about the representative point, but I suspect that had I given more details of the many others who have attempted the record (and the forum), you would equally say, “Who made you forum spokesperson?” The most important thing was to make clear that I am not the only person to try this and that the minimum requirement will affect many more people who want to. Maybe the wording can be improved. I certainly don’t think I can be seen as a spokesperson as much as whoever wrote to Guinness when Gawley was branded a liar here.

Because of how they operate, all communication with Guinness is generally made individually. The issue might be individual (lack of evidence for one’s own claim), or it might affect the activity as a whole (the former Oyster rule). Despite knowing about this forum for some time, Guinness staff have never registered and asked us directly what we think about how they handle the record. They might at least do that if they value it. They have had complaints from several more people than me. They have never attempted or adjudicated the record, and many here have suggested that they do not understand it anymore, if indeed they ever have.

Sub-16 hours was impossible in late 2021, when I made my attempt and that was the limit. T4 was closed and required to be visited by other means. This was an allowance that Guinness put in so that the record could still be attempted in the event of an indefinite closure of a terminal station. There was no point in them allowing this if it took the participant over their limit. Furthermore, the Battersea branch had a 12-minute frequency on average. When I found out about the limit afterwards, the claim became an exercise to counter Guinness's inconsistency and lack of knowledge about their own record.

Of course, since mid-2022, T4 has been open, the Battersea frequency improved, and the limit increased by a pathetic quarter-hour. Sub-16 hours and 15 minutes is definitely possible now. So is sub-16 hours. I did not say it was not possible, but unlikely. Because from 2008 to 2021, only two reported times out of at least 114 went under 16 hours and 15 minutes. If this target were more likely, then there would have been more such times, because I am certain that there must have been more such theoretical routes planned. I would say the Tube fails for this exercise more often than not, especially when the target is low.

There is no complaint from me about your formidability. Rather, it is an observation that your success might just have given you the air of "we went under 16 hours so everyone else can". In the absence of a verified record, why should there be a limit on what we cannot control and for what Guinness sees as an ideal time even though they have never done it? And as Richard has suggested, those who are less experienced might feel unable to attempt with Guinness rules now. That was the main point of the petition.
Perhaps you should remind me how all of your world record attempts prior to that date had gone?
4.jpg

Perhaps you should rethink that.
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RJSRdg
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by RJSRdg »

ANDY_JS wrote: 04 Jan 2023, 14:38 I didn't know they'd made using an Oyster card compulsory. I usually try to use a paper day ticket because it means you don't get fined for being in the system too long. This is going to make it even more expensive to do the challenge.
Andy - looking at Adham's post above (and his more recent one this morning), it appears that Guinness have rescinded this requirement. Like you, I prefer to use a paper ticket (despite on several challenges finding that it has demagnetised, and on at least three, losing it completely!)
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moley
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by moley »

Adham wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 01:24 Guinness staff have never registered and asked us directly what we think about how they handle the record.
Guinness Staff have registered for the site a number of times. Never posted to my knowledge, and my no longer be on here.
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miklcct
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by miklcct »

I'm thinking of conducting this challenge on a Saturday, using a traditional Chesham start and Heathrow finish, and use Stratford - Upminster c2c returning from Leytonstone. Has anyone done that? Is it possible to go to T4 in time before the service ends?
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Golf »

Its more than possible of course just run ur route through a wtt and allow for ur connections reasonably whomknows what you can come up with?
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by miklcct »

My rough thinking of the route, is to start at Chesham and end at Upminster, which will involve the following unconventional constructs:

- Do not double back the Richmond branch, instead, continue to Feltham on SWR for Heathrow
- Run between Kensington Olympia and Hammersmith (H&C)

Charing Cross is a bit tricky though

I'll run it through the timetable later to see if it is feasible or not.

P.S. I have typed all the journey segments into a spreadsheet and the estimation of my route is 19:48. If I start at the first train at Chesham it will probably end up on the last train from Richmond to Upminster if everything runs on schedule, with waiting time being half of the headway. I will need to think about it thoroughly before any possible attempts, including switching to a Heathrow finish or not.
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Iain
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by Iain »

I'm pretty sure they've both been done before - I know the Feltham one has

Charing Cross isn't that hard if you use the lines in the right combination - I'll leave you the fun of discovering it
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by miklcct »

Iain wrote: 27 Jul 2023, 18:28 I'm pretty sure they've both been done before - I know the Feltham one has

Charing Cross isn't that hard if you use the lines in the right combination - I'll leave you the fun of discovering it
I have made two plans and their difference is only 4 minutes. One involves travelling the whole length of Bakerloo and also the Charing Cross branch of Northern Line all the way from Waterloo. Another makes a deep V shape from Baker Street down to Charing Cross back up to Euston just to handle Regent's Park, Charing Cross and Goodge Street. These 3 tricky stations are the stations which can't be ticked off by travelling all the E-W lines across Central London.
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Re: Thinking out loud

Post by RJSRdg »

Going straight through on all the lines isn't necessarily a terribly efficient way of doing it, as you wind up visiting a lot of stations more than once.
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