Apostrophes

Yorkie · Post by **Yorkie** » 02 May 2005, 23:53

Anyone see the repeated "Grumpy old men" tonight after the snooker on BBC2?

It was pointed out that "Barons Court" should be entitled to an apostrophe if "Earl's Court" is. How strange is that?

(Incidentally, I don't have a TV, but the BBC forgot to cut the online feed after the snooker!!)

geofftech · Post by **geofftech** » 03 May 2005, 14:05

Shepherd's Bush has an apostrophe too.

Isn't because Earls & Shepherds are plural but there is only one Baron. And yet to say "It is the court of the Baron", you of course say "It's the Barons Court". Or something.

I never got my english O level (yes kids, i'm THAT old), so what would I know?

geofftech · Post by **geofftech** » 03 May 2005, 14:06

ooh, and what about "Parsons Green". there's no apostrophe on that one!

Yorkie · Post by **Yorkie** » 03 May 2005, 14:34

As far as I know (for I posess a GCSE in English!)

1 Earl who has a court: Earl's court
2+ Earls who have a court: Earls' court

and the same for all the rest

Check this out, especially the bad examples

Post by **tubeguru** » 03 May 2005, 15:50

The only explanation I can offer is one of somebody getting their apostrophes wrong when naming the stations.

Earl's Court and Shepherd's bush refer to ONE Earl and ONE Shepherd (the apostrophe is before the s)

I think Barons Court was supposed to be named after MULIPLE barons. Because you are showing ownership (the Court belongs to the Barons) you need an apostrophe to distinguish the word from the ordinary pluralisation of Barons - thus Barons' (apostrophe after the s) for multiple ownership.

So, either someone thought it looked stupid and dropped it altogether or someone didn't know their English.

I suspect the first one to save confusion and signs with apostrophes at the end.

I believe the name should read BARONS' COURT.

Either that or it is named after someone called BARONS which would also make perfect sense.

jonny · Post by **jonny** » 03 May 2005, 17:59

also St James's Park is (according to my mickey mouse key stage 3 teaching) incorrect because if it is the park of someone who's name ends in an 's' the apostrophe is just put after the first s with no second s added, ie. st james' park.

Post by **tubeguru** » 03 May 2005, 18:13

jonny wrote:also St James's Park is (according to my mickey mouse key stage 3 teaching) incorrect because if it is the park of someone who's name ends in an 's' the apostrophe is just put after the first s with no second s added, ie. st james' park.

Ah, that's the bone of contention among people.

There are two ways. The Tube way is not wrong per se; it's only one way of doing it. I personally would NOT put the apostrophe after a single S as that implies multiple ownership. I think that's why the 's came into use.

St James' Park makes no sense under the multiple ownership rule of apostrophes so you have a clash of interests. But what if there were two St Jameses (no apostrophe for that one)?

It would be St James' Park; the plural of Saints would be implied in the position of the apostrophe. This clashes with Mr English Teacher's interpretation of the rule as HIS apostophe at the end is for a SINGLE Saint James.

Do you see the trouble you've all caused here?

Yorkie · Post by **Yorkie** » 03 May 2005, 18:47

tubeguru wrote:Either that or it is named after someone called BARONS which would also make perfect sense.

If BCT is named after someone called "Barons", then it should be "Barons' Court"

Shame really that I'm a bit of a pedant, or am I actually turning into a Grumpy Old Man?

jonny · Post by **jonny** » 03 May 2005, 19:14

what about golders green - is that the green of golder or something?

Yorkie · Post by **Yorkie** » 03 May 2005, 19:45

jonny wrote:what about golders green - is that the green of golder or something?

The meaning of the name is obscure.
But it seems to come from a family name beginning Go... something-or-other

Post by **tubeguru** » 03 May 2005, 20:02

Yorkie wrote:
tubeguru wrote:Either that or it is named after someone called BARONS which would also make perfect sense.
If BCT is named after someone called "Barons", then it should be "Barons' Court"

Shame really that I'm a bit of a pedant, or am I actually turning into a Grumpy Old Man?

BARONS' COURT means " a court that belongs to more than one Baron" not "A court that belongs to someone called Barons".

You will never out grumpy-old-man me

Yorkie · Post by **Yorkie** » 03 May 2005, 20:49

I will make outsiders think I'm more of a geek than you though

Whoops. I don't think that was supposed to happen at all. I'm normal(-ish) really. Maybe it's best to consign this entire thread to the great big e-shredder in the sky.

hwolge · Post by **hwolge** » 03 May 2005, 21:16

According to the book "What's in a name?" by Cyril M. Harris, Barons Court got its name from:

"Unlike Earl's Court this name has no connection with the law nor the nobility, but was so named after an estate that extends from the District Line to Perham Road to the south. The estate was planned by Sir William Palliser and built at the end of the 19th century. The name was fabricated, perhaps in allusion to the title Court Baron then held by the Lord of the Manor or because Earl's court was the name of the nearby district."

Anyway, Cyril M. Harris gives no explanations to missing/misplaced/existing apostrophies in station names at all...

HÃƒÂ¥kan

tpfkar · Post by **tpfkar** » 05 May 2005, 17:44

Which football team play at St. James Park?

Anyone?

Was that a hand at the back there?

Well done if you said.....

........

Exeter City.

(Of course Newcastle play at St. James's Park. But you already knew that.)

DaveKnight · Post by **DaveKnight** » 30 Jul 2008, 05:01

"Rules of Printed English" by Herbert Rees Has this to say on the use of the apostrophe. "Singular nouns ending in s should take 's in the possessive case:
St James's Street, St James's Park, Inigo Jones's art and Graves's disease are correct but St James's Club is not. Pears Cyclpaedia states St James' Club as the correct form.

Confused? English has some weird rules.

To try to explain the anomaly of Barons Court therefore is not possible without knowing the history of the word. Is it a singular name or a plural noun? It would be interesting to find out.

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