Station options that count as 1 for alternative challenges

[A2]

As some of you are aware I've been putting together a replacement for the Random 15 challenge generator and although it isn't yet in a position where I can share that, there is a fundamental question that needs to be answered, as it is the basis of the data that everything is founded on.

So far I have got a single list of all 738 station options within TC Zones 1-9 +Watford Junction. These are across Underground, Overground, National Rail, Tramlink, Cable Car (couldn't resist). Where a station is on multiple modes of transport I currently have it on separate data rows, however the structure does support a station to be under multiple modes.

I need your help to identify stations which need to be combined.

By this I mean stations which would count as the same location if multiple of their modes were to be being used. e.g.

West Brompton is currently listed as:
[*]West Brompton (LU)
[*]West Brompton (LO)
[*]West Brompton (NR)

As LO and NR are the same station, but LU is separate this should be rationalised to:
[*]West Brompton (LU)
[*]West Brompton (LO/NR)

By the same logic Stratford goes down from 4 to 3:
[*]Stratford (LU)
[*]Stratford (DLR)
[*]Stratford (LO/NR)

So... essentially... what needs to be combined and what needs to stay separate?

[greatkingrat]

I would say that both West Brompton and Stratford are just 1 station. I'm fairly sure that is how the old generator worked. The only stations that count more than once are where the stations are physically separate, eg Canary Wharf and Shepherds Bush are 2 stations, West Hampstead would be 3.

[A2]

That would then leave everything as 1 except for:

3 Paddington
2 Marylebone
2 Euston
1 St. Pancras
1 King's Cross
1 King's Cross St Pancras
2 Liverpool Street
2 Cannon Street
2 Charing Cross
2 Victoria
2 Waterloo
2 London Bridge
2 Canary Wharf
3 West Hampstead
2 Shadwell

If I remember correctly though we've had challenges whereby Kentish Town can come out twice as NR and LU, similarly with Finsbury Park, Blackfriars, Vauxhall, Brixton... in which case they need to be separate for purposes of the database. Of course if only one mode is selected up front then they can only come out for that mode.

(This isn't intended to cause an argument and the data can always be changed later on anyway, just trying to get a reasonable starting point)

[The Orange One]

I'd say:

3 stations
- King's Cross NR, King's Cross St Pancras LU, St Pancras International NR
- Paddington (B/C/D), Paddington (C/H&C), Paddington (NR, HeX)
- Waterloo LU, Waterloo NR, Waterloo East NR
- West Hampstead LO, West Hampstead LU, West Hampstead Thameslink

2 stations (that happen to share the same name)
- Balham (LU and NR)
- Beckenham Junction (Tramlink and NR)
- Bethnal Green (LU and LO/NR - you might as well seeing as LO is about to snap up some Greater Anglia)
- Blackfriars (LU and NR)
- Brixton (LU and NR)
- Canary Wharf (LU and DLR)
- Cannon Street (LU and NR)
- Charing Cross (LU and NR)
- East Croydon (Tramlink and NR)
- Edgware Road (Bak and C/D/H&C)
- Elephant and Castle (LU and NR)
- Euston (LU and LO/NR)
- Finsbury Park (LU and NR)
- Hammersmith (D/P and C/H&C)
- Heathrow Terminals 123 (LU and HeX)
- Heathrow Terminal 4 (LU and HeX)
- Heathrow Terminal 5 (LU and HeX)
- Lewisham (NR and DLR)
- Limehouse (NR and DLR)
- Liverpool Street (LU and LO/NR - see Bethnal Green)
- London Bridge (LU and NR)
- Marylebone (LU and NR)
- Shadwell (LO and DLR)
- Shepherd's Bush (LO/NR and LU)
- Stratford International (HS1 and DLR)
- Tottenham Hale (LU and NR)
- Vauxhall (LU and NR)
- Victoria (LU and NR)
- Walthamstow Central, or Walthamstow Hoe Street (LU and NR)
- West Croydon (Tramlink and LO/NR)
- Woolwich Arsenal (NR and DLR)

All other stations (e.g. West Brompton, Stratford, Ealing Broadway, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Birkbeck, Greenwich, Willesden Junction etc.) should be combined into 1. The only stations I think should be discussed are these:

- Kentish Town (LU and NR): I would combine this into one, but leave it for discussion
- Seven Sisters (LU and NR): This is effectively Kentish Town again, and I would therefore combine

As for differently named stations linked up (e.g. Bank/Monument), they are always different stations!

[nozzacook]

This was the definition for round 3 this year hope it helps.


Re: Random 15 Championship 2013/14: Round 3
by tangy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:00 am

To clarify, here is a list of what stations are to be included in the challenge:

--All LU stations in zones 1-2 (all lines open)
--All Overground stations in zones 1-2 (all lines open)
--NR Stations counted as separate from the above: All London Terminals, Battersea Park, Bethnal Green, Brixton, Cambridge Heath, Clapton, City Thameslink, Deptford, East Dulwich, Elephant & Castle, Finsbury Park, Greenwich, Hackney Downs, Herne Hill, Lewisham, Loughborough Junction, North Dulwich, Nunhead, Rectory Road, South Bermondsey, St. Johns, Stoke Newington, Vauxhall, Waterloo East, West Hampstead Thameslink.

Stations closed: Drayton Park, Essex Road, Fenchurch Street, Limehouse NR, Putney, Queenstown Road, Wandsworth Town.

The golden rule is that if you need to exit one set of ticket barriers then enter another set of ticket barriers to transfer to the other network then it is classed as separate. At stations where one can interchange between two different networks without passing through any ticket barriers then it is counted as one station can be visited by any of the above networks included in this challenge.

Examples of the above are: Farringdon, Highbury & Islington, Kensington Olympia, New Cross, West Brompton, Whitechapel to name a few.
Last edited by tangy on Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tangy.

tangy
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[The Orange One]

So according to these rules, Kentish Town and Seven Sisters are each one station.

I'm not sure what the situation is in Greenwich - but since you took part in Random 15 Round 5 this year, you should know.

Beckenham Junction - what do you think? I don't know the station too well, maybe someone does.

Finsbury Park - the LU part is ungated, and the Moorgate line platforms are as well, but some NR platforms are gated.

[DrainBrain]

Greenwich seems clear cut as a single station. When we were there it seemed you could wander between any of the platforms, even to the extent that one of the DLR platforms backs onto one of the NR platforms.

My own opinion on Kentish Town, Finsbury Park and Seven Sisters is to treat them as two stations each based on the significant above ground/below ground separation of the NR and LU parts. That's just my opinion though and it's certainly not definitive.

I'm glad this thread came up because I'm working on my own route-planning app. It'll be handy to have a definitive list.

[nozzacook]

So according to these rules, Kentish Town and Seven Sisters are each one station.

I'm not sure what the situation is in Greenwich - but since you took part in Random 15 Round 5 this year, you should know.

Beckenham Junction - what do you think? I don't know the station too well, maybe someone does.

Finsbury Park - the LU part is ungated, and the Moorgate line platforms are as well, but some NR platforms are gated.

Kentish Town, Seven Sisters & Greenwich I would Class as ONE Station using the above rule as used for Round 3.

Finsbury Park the two parts of the station are separated by barriers for some changes so to avoid confusion should be counted as two.
Beckenham Jct I would say is two stations as the tram uses no part of the station and is separated by the car park.

This is my opinion on these.

[The Orange One]

If you can wander about at Greenwich, then it's just one station, and according to you the only cross-platform off the DLR! That's worth knowing.

Other than that, we've all agreed Greenwich is a single station, and Finsbury Park and Beckenham Junction are each two separate stations.

It seems the question is now about Kentish Town and Seven Sisters, both stations have a similar situation, the LU part of the station being substantially underground while the NR is a separate set of platforms in the open air - though I seem to remember Kentish Town was a single station in the old generator, but Seven Sisters was two for some strange reason.

I would say there was a precedent for making them both one station though. Apart from the barrier rule, Highbury and Islington comes under the same barrier, and there's never been any argument that it was one big station.

[greatkingrat]

I would agree Beckenham Junction is two, but Mitcham Junction should only be one. If you look at the map below, you will see the tram platforms are immediately adjacent to the NR platforms.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/ ... /plan.html

[The Orange One]

So it is! I didn't check, because I've alighted at Mitcham Junction from a tram in the past and I remember walking straight up to the exit onto the A237 without passing any signs to the National Rail concourse - but of course, any signs would be on the eastbound tram platform...

I shall edit my list accordingly.

[nozzacook]

If you can wander about at Greenwich, then it's just one station, and according to you the only cross-platform off the DLR! That's worth knowing.

Other than that, we've all agreed Greenwich is a single station, and Finsbury Park and Beckenham Junction are each two separate stations.

It seems the question is now about Kentish Town and Seven Sisters, both stations have a similar situation, the LU part of the station being substantially underground while the NR is a separate set of platforms in the open air - though I seem to remember Kentish Town was a single station in the old generator, but Seven Sisters was two for some strange reason.

I would say there was a precedent for making them both one station though. Apart from the barrier rule, Highbury and Islington comes under the same barrier, and there's never been any argument that it was one big station.

Don't forget you can also X platform from the FCC to LU at Highbury & Islington.

[Iain]

Hmm I'm not sure about the definition of "physically separate"; the entrance to the tube at Marylebone is clearly within the NR station. Yes there are barriers inbetween, but that's the case at Kentish Town too IIRC

[The Orange One]

Kentish Town has no such barrier problems:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/ ... /plan.html

And neither does Seven Sisters:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/ ... /plan.html

[A2]

Thanks everyone.
I've rationalised the list based on everything above and it now has 665 possible stations that can be drawn.