Where am I? - on the move: rules

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GuyBarry
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Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

Before we start any more games of "On the Move", can we agree on the rules please? I don't mind experimenting with the rules but I think it's important that we should agree on the rules before the start of the game, otherwise it's just going to be chaos.

What I proposed last time was this:
1) After each even-numbered question, the hider must make a move of one stop in any permitted direction. The hider may not move after odd-numbered questions.
2) The hider can only move on the eleven London Underground Lines.
3) The hider can change line only where two lines intersect in the same station, with this defined by Guinness rules (so no switching between the two Paddingtons and no Bank/Monument switching).
4) The hider cannot visit the same station twice.
5) If it becomes impossible for the hider to move any more, he/she must say so and remain in the same location for the rest of the game.
Although (4) wasn't an explicit rule in the last two games, neither I nor the Orange One visited a station twice, and we both declared we hadn't done so. The game would have been much harder to solve if I hadn't had this knowledge, so I think it should be made an official rule. (It also removes the need for explicit rules about reversing and repeating sequences.)

In this version it's possible to end up at a terminus with nowhere to go, but I think it should be the hider's responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. If you end up at a dead end it's your own fault! (That effectively removes quite a lot of the network, but I think it leaves enough stations to keep the gave interesting.)

Any comments?
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by A Challenge »

GuyBarry wrote:Before we start any more games of "On the Move", can we agree on the rules please? I don't mind experimenting with the rules but I think it's important that we should agree on the rules before the start of the game, otherwise it's just going to be chaos.

What I proposed last time was this:
1) After each even-numbered question, the hider must make a move of one stop in any permitted direction. The hider may not move after odd-numbered questions.
2) The hider can only move on the eleven London Underground Lines.
3) The hider can change line only where two lines intersect in the same station, with this defined by Guinness rules (so no switching between the two Paddingtons and no Bank/Monument switching).
4) The hider cannot visit the same station twice.
5) If it becomes impossible for the hider to move any more, he/she must say so and remain in the same location for the rest of the game.
Although (4) wasn't an explicit rule in the last two games, neither I nor the Orange One visited a station twice, and we both declared we hadn't done so. The game would have been much harder to solve if I hadn't had this knowledge, so I think it should be made an official rule. (It also removes the need for explicit rules about reversing and repeating sequences.)

In this version it's possible to end up at a terminus with nowhere to go, but I think it should be the hider's responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. If you end up at a dead end it's your own fault! (That effectively removes quite a lot of the network, but I think it leaves enough stations to keep the gave interesting.)

Any comments?
I agree with these rules though I am not sure whether Rule 4 works, as as you say 'this rules out a lot of the network', which is true until you consider startind in Upminster is allowed and is the only way that this will happen (West Ham to Barking) and both Overground and TfL Rail are allowed then going out to Upminster is possible.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by The Orange One »

Unlike Tubeblock, which was really constrained by restriction to the tube (most games could be finished in a few moves), this game could very simply turn into a standard Where Am I game. Obviously it would require testing, but I do worry that a person could be trapped in one spot before another person has a chance to find them.

There was an alternative challenge called the Snake Challenge, where people chased each other along a predetermined route. The routes were chosen so that no one station appeared twice, as with this game.

A lot of work was put in to find an optimal Snake route; I believe this was 129 stations long. Unfortunately, when you are in the outer zones you can be tracked down with relative ease (especially with the classic Snake start of Epping, where you probably wouldn't get to Hainault before being found).

The obvious solution is to extend the network, but I doubt it would have much effect.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by A Challenge »

Overgeound and TfL Rail could be added or even the entire UK rail network (including all stations on the full netork map).
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

The Orange One wrote:Unlike Tubeblock, which was really constrained by restriction to the tube (most games could be finished in a few moves), this game could very simply turn into a standard Where Am I game.
Well it hasn't happened yet, but I suppose that could happen.
Obviously it would require testing, but I do worry that a person could be trapped in one spot before another person has a chance to find them.
OK, how about this? Once during every game, the hider is allowed a "teleport". This involves moving from a terminus (defined as a station that has only one neighbouring station) to any other terminus. It counts as a single move, and you don't have to declare you've done it unless you're asked explicitly.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

A Challenge wrote:Overgeound and TfL Rail could be added
Possibly, although there aren't that many interchange stations between the Underground and Overground or TfL Rail networks, so I'm not sure if it would make much difference in practice.
or even the entire UK rail network (including all stations on the full netork map).
Too ambitious for present purposes I think! (Unless you want games lasting several months :) )
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by A Challenge »

GuyBarry wrote:
A Challenge wrote:Overground and TfL Rail could be added
Possibly, although there aren't that many interchange stations between the Underground and Overground or TfL Rail networks, so I'm not sure if it would make much difference in practice.
Here is a list of LU interchanges with the Overground, TfL Rail and the DLR:
  • Bank
  • Barking
  • Blackhorse Road
  • Canada Water
  • Canary Wharf
  • Canning Town
  • Euston
  • Gunnersbury
  • Harrow and Wealdstone
  • Highbury and Islington
  • Liverpool Street
  • Queen's Park
  • Stratford
  • Tottenham Hale
  • West Brompton
  • West Ham
  • Whitechapel
  • Willesden Junction
GuyBarry wrote:
A Challenge wrote:or even the entire UK rail network (including all stations on the full netork map).
Too ambitious for present purposes I think! (Unless you want games lasting several months :) )
You have a point there. But if they have to start at a station on one operator only and declare the operator or if they have to declare their starting County then it might work.
GuyBarry wrote:
The Orange One wrote:Obviously it would require testing, but I do worry that a person could be trapped in one spot before another person has a chance to find them.
OK, how about this? Once during every game, the hider is allowed a "teleport". This involves moving from a terminus (defined as a station that has only one neighbouring station) to any other terminus. It counts as a single move, and you don't have to declare you've done it unless you're asked explicitly.
That would work and I think it is a good idea.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by The Orange One »

https://12d1cdca-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0

This is effectively the map we would be working on with Overground (also DLR) and TfL Rail. Obviously you could start at a terminus, but head to a terminus and you're stuck (unless you use this teleport).

As you can see from the map, some of these twists involve a lot of "dead running" (if you head east from Barking on the District Line, for example, your moves are forced all the way to Stratford unless you want to die on a terminus branch, but that's still a lot of useless stations in between).

I don't really know what to do with the three loops (Heathrow, Hainault and Camden Town) so I've left them in for the moment.

Other "dead runs" apart from Barking to Stratford via Upminster include:
- West Brompton to Canada Water (via Clapham Junction)
- Willesden Junction to Highbury and Islington
- Wembley Park to Ealing Common (via Rayners Lane)
- Stratford to Seven Sisters (via Liverpool Street)
- Ealing Common to Notting Hill Gate (via Ealing Broadway)
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

The Orange One wrote: This is effectively the map we would be working on with Overground (also DLR) and TfL Rail. Obviously you could start at a terminus, but head to a terminus and you're stuck (unless you use this teleport).
I'm quite happy to work with that map - I think there are enough possible routes for a workable game. The "teleport" idea probably isn't required (although we could bring it in later if the routes become too predictable).
As you can see from the map, some of these twists involve a lot of "dead running" (if you head east from Barking on the District Line, for example, your moves are forced all the way to Stratford unless you want to die on a terminus branch, but that's still a lot of useless stations in between).
It's the hider's choice! No one forces the hider to go in any particular direction.
I don't really know what to do with the three loops (Heathrow, Hainault and Camden Town) so I've left them in for the moment.
Returning from any of those three loops requires going through a station you've visited before (Hatton Cross, Euston or Leytonstone), so they might as well not exist as far as I can see.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by The Orange One »

Can the hider choose to stop dead or must they move if they can?

Note that the following are separate (in addition to Paddington/Paddington, Edgware Road/Edgware Road or Hammersmith/Hammersmith):

- Shadwell (LO) and Shadwell (DLR)
- Shepherd's Bush (LO) and Shepherd's Bush (LU)
- West Hampstead (LO) and West Hampstead (LU)
- Liverpool Street (LU) and Liverpool Street (LO/TfL Rail)
- Any marked interchange between two differently named stations
- Any interchange not shown is between two separate stations (e.g. Canary Wharfs, Eustons etc.)
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

The Orange One wrote:Can the hider choose to stop dead or must they move if they can?
The way I've framed the rules, the hider must move. I suppose you could bring in an option of not moving but only if the hider said so explicitly. Otherwise the hider has an unfair advantage.
Note that the following are separate (in addition to Paddington/Paddington, Edgware Road/Edgware Road or Hammersmith/Hammersmith):

- Shadwell (LO) and Shadwell (DLR)
- Shepherd's Bush (LO) and Shepherd's Bush (LU)
- West Hampstead (LO) and West Hampstead (LU)
- Liverpool Street (LU) and Liverpool Street (LO/TfL Rail)
- Any marked interchange between two differently named stations
- Any interchange not shown is between two separate stations (e.g. Canary Wharfs, Eustons etc.)
OK, happy with that.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by The Orange One »

The map I put together involves all moves where you're not trapped up a dead end branch line; obviously we'd have the rest of the tube map as well.

When I say stop, I mean "stop for the rest of the game". I'd like to leave it as a voluntary option that you can choose to come to a halt whenever you want, as opposed to only being allowed to do so when you have reached an impossible to move situation. For example, if you find yourself heading towards Morden, you have the right to come to a halt at an intermediate station rather than trudging right to the bitter end.

Are we keeping the station specific rules? These are:

- Heathrow Loop is one way only
- TCR is Northern Line only (temporarily)
- Tufnell Park is nonexistent (temporarily)

In reality there are another two oddities:
- trains from Bank towards Lewisham do not call at West India Quay but they do when heading towards Bank
- there is a curve of track linking Croxley and Rickmansworth (the Watford North Curve)

but let's leave these out. The latter only receives trains at the silly hours and the former is a little too confusing.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by A Challenge »

GuyBarry wrote:
The Orange One wrote: This is effectively the map we would be working on with Overground (also DLR) and TfL Rail. Obviously you could start at a terminus, but head to a terminus and you're stuck (unless you use this teleport).
I'm quite happy to work with that map - I think there are enough possible routes for a workable game. The "teleport" idea probably isn't required (although we could bring it in later if the routes become too predictable).
I think the teleport should be left in, it will make it more interesting!
GuyBarry wrote:
The Orange One wrote:As you can see from the map, some of these twists involve a lot of "dead running" (if you head east from Barking on the District Line, for example, your moves are forced all the way to Stratford unless you want to die on a terminus branch, but that's still a lot of useless stations in between).
It's the hider's choice! No one forces the hider to go in any particular direction.
I agree with that and so the dead runs might get boring for the hider, but its their own fault, as you say.
The Orange One wrote:The map I put together involves all moves where you're not trapped up a dead end branch line; obviously we'd have the rest of the tube map as well.

When I say stop, I mean "stop for the rest of the game". I'd like to leave it as a voluntary option that you can choose to come to a halt whenever you want, as opposed to only being allowed to do so when you have reached an impossible to move situation. For example, if you find yourself heading towards Morden, you have the right to come to a halt at an intermediate station rather than trudging right to the bitter end.
I agree, it might get a bit frustrating for both the hider and the finder if they can't just stop (otherwise once they have stopped on the Morden branch they have to be at Morden)
The Orange One wrote:Are we keeping the station specific rules? These are:

-Heathrow Loop is one way only
- TCR is Northern Line only (temporarily)
- Tufnell Park is nonexistent (temporarily)
Yes, keep them but I doubt that the Heatrow Loop rule will be needed as it is a dead end.
The Orange One wrote:In reality there are another two oddities:
- trains from Bank towards Lewisham do not call at West India Quay but they do when heading towards Bank
- there is a curve of track linking Croxley and Rickmansworth (the Watford North Curve)

but let's leave these out. The latter only receives trains at the silly hours and the former is a little too confusing.
I agree with West India Quay but you could still do a turnaround at Canary Wharf as you haven't already been to West India Quay so perhaps we can use that technical oddity to our advantage when hiding (and, when used, it puts a higher station gap between direct Westferry :arrow: Poplar and Westferry :arrow: Canary Wharf :arrow: West India Quay :arrow: Poplar. Also, not having the Watford North Curve might also make for interesting games (Rickmansworth :arrow: Croxley :arrow: Moor Park or Croxley :arrow: Rickmansworth :arrow: Moor Park).
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

The Orange One wrote: When I say stop, I mean "stop for the rest of the game". I'd like to leave it as a voluntary option that you can choose to come to a halt whenever you want, as opposed to only being allowed to do so when you have reached an impossible to move situation. For example, if you find yourself heading towards Morden, you have the right to come to a halt at an intermediate station rather than trudging right to the bitter end.
OK, if you like - but you're required to declare it.
Are we keeping the station specific rules? These are:

- Heathrow Loop is one way only
- TCR is Northern Line only (temporarily)
- Tufnell Park is nonexistent (temporarily)
Yes, they're all fine by me.
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Re: Where am I? - on the move: rules

Post by GuyBarry »

A Challenge wrote: I think the teleport should be left in, it will make it more interesting!
Let's leave it out for now and keep it in reserve in case the game becomes too predictable. I think the way I originally framed it gives an unfair advantage to the hider, to be honest, but we can work on that later.

OK, I think we're all in agreement now and I'm happy for you to start the next one!
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