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Soup Dragon
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Post by Soup Dragon »

Some good points raised here by everyone.

If Zone 1 ever was to be extended then I don't think that there is any arguement, a new record has to be set. That does not take away from Starkey the fact that he set the record with a 64 station config. However if stations are removed from Z1 (Unlikely I guess) then it would appear to be a hollow record if someone set a slower time that the previous record for 64 stations.

In terms of the GWR it will be very interesting to see what happens.
If Guinness don't insist that we take the bus then in theory you could take around 30 minutes off Hakans time without doing the ELL. However, if somebody set a time of say 18h24m59s having done 269 stations, although slightly quicker than Hakan it would seem to be a hollow record.

Whatever the case anyone planning to do the record after the ELL closes I would highly recommend to just go out there and do it. Don't bother asking Guinness any stupid questions, just see what rules Guinness e-mail to you and if there is no mention of ELL closure and replacement buses just go for a 269 record. :)
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Post by Root »

I tried that when Shoreditch closed. I emailed Guinness with my query about two months before I did the challenge, but they didn't get back to me in time. Obviously, I didn't send a record, but I got an email about two weeks after the attempt from GWR telling me I should have visited it.

So, you could just go out there without knowing what Guinness will decide, but imagine how disappointed you will be if they tell you your time isn't valid at all.
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Soup Dragon
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Post by Soup Dragon »

Root wrote:I tried that when Shoreditch closed. I emailed Guinness with my query about two months before I did the challenge, but they didn't get back to me in time. Obviously, I didn't send a record, but I got an email about two weeks after the attempt from GWR telling me I should have visited it.

So, you could just go out there without knowing what Guinness will decide, but imagine how disappointed you will be if they tell you your time isn't valid at all.
It will be pointless even attempting the record if Guinness say that you have to use the replacement bus for the entire ELL. The current rules that they send are still dated December 2005 and make no mention of Shoreditch / ELL closure whatsoever. The current rules still include all the rubbish about T4 being closed, which is completely different situation to closing an entire line which will never re-open as part of the Underground.

That's why I say come January 2008, just get out there and do it, if GWR Rules don't mention the ELL business, you will have visited all stations and complied with GWR rules. If I did set a record and then GWR rejected of course I would be dissappointed, but unless someone gets out there and tests the water then there can be no serious attempts made until 2010.
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Post by hwolge »

Soup Dragon wrote: In terms of the GWR it will be very interesting to see what happens.
If Guinness don't insist that we take the bus then in theory you could take around 30 minutes off Hakans time without doing the ELL. However, if somebody set a time of say 18h24m59s having done 269 stations, although slightly quicker than Hakan it would seem to be a hollow record.

Whatever the case anyone planning to do the record after the ELL closes I would highly recommend to just go out there and do it. Don't bother asking Guinness any stupid questions, just see what rules Guinness e-mail to you and if there is no mention of ELL closure and replacement buses just go for a 269 record. :)
After checking our log book copy, I think I and Lars would had been more like 45-60 minutes faster without the entire ELL...

Unfortunately I think the Guinness set of rules are inadequate as they are, so some questions are bound to be raised by anyone seriously contemplating an attempt... But I agree, with ELL replacement buses, there would be virtually no chance of breaking the current record.
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Post by jamesthegill »

It looks like on Wednesday 2nd January there'll be a lot of us setting off to try and get the new all stations record then :D
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Post by Soup Dragon »

jamesthegill wrote:It looks like on Wednesday 2nd January there'll be a lot of us setting off to try and get the new all stations record then :D
Anyone needing to stay at Amersham the night before should book Nita Hurley's now, before she gets fully booked :)
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Post by petermiller36 »

Ok, just to have my opinion on this. I do agree with TubeGuru. ANY change of the configuration (whether the '275' or Z1) means that a new record needs to be set. For an increase in stations this is obvious as to why this is the base. But the same does also apply for a reduction in stations (which Guinness abide by). The reason for this is that it is a different set of stations. For example if you took out West Ruislip then although there are less stations, the time would not necessarily be better. (West Rui to Ick run). This therefore changes the challenge. If a mid-line station, such as Tooting Bec, was removed then it will probably only reduce the overall time by 30 seconds? But have no other affect on the challenge.

So based on this, does it have to be an important station that is removed in order to make the challenge and time new? I argue no. Each station change makes it a different set of challenges and therefore a different time recorded. The old record would simply be retired.
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Post by gasman »

petermiller36 wrote:For example if you took out West Ruislip then although there are less stations, the time would not necessarily be better. (West Rui to Ick run). This therefore changes the challenge.
Interesting point. However, if West Ruislip were to close after you'd broken the 274 record, I reckon you should still be able to retrospectively consider your run to be a valid 273 circuit, on the basis that the Ruislip Gardens - West Ruislip stretch was merely A Convenient Public Transport Link that happened to exist at the time of your attempt. The fact that said public transport link ceased to exist at a later point in time is irrelevant - otherwise, logically you'd also have to invalidate the record any time any London bus route opens or closes.
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Post by tubeguru »

This is all too silly for my structured mind.

Different set of stations = different record.

You're overcomplicating things.
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petermiller36
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Post by petermiller36 »

Agree with TubeGuru again. My point was made merely to back up the fact that a change in configuration is a change in record. I did not make the point for others to say "aha but wot about public transport links". Guinness says it would be a new record, as do others. Nuff said.
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Post by Steeevooo »

Just to add my opinion...
I agree with Neil and Peter. The record that is currently set is the Record for visiting all 275 London Underground Stations in the quickest time. That implies that it is the record for visiting all 275 Stations in the current configuration.
If a station were removed or added, that will alter the configuration. Hence a new record would need to be set for that configuration.
I think the whole issue of "We did those stations as well as a couple extra, so the record shouldn't change" is a fair point, but it neglects the fact that the "record" was set for a configuration of X stations, whereas the record up for grabs is for a configuration of Y stations.
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Post by Root »

If you, let's say, happened to break the Bottle challenge record whilst attempting a Zone 1 challenge, would that not be valid? I'm sure you agree that it is. Consider then, would a record for 274 stations should be valid if you set it during an attempt at 275? I think it should be. However, I'm sure Guinness won't agree, so it's pretty futile discussing it in terms of the whole network challenge. However, with regard to our minor challenges which aren't independently verified, I think a change that involves only a reduction in required stations, with no service changes (eg no new track, no new stations - for example if a border station were moved into zone 2) should allow for existing times on the old configuration to stand.
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jamesthegill
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Post by jamesthegill »

tubeguru wrote:This is all too silly for my structured mind.

Different set of stations = different record.

You're overcomplicating things.
I'll have to say I agree with this, mostly because it's simple and my head hurts. Anyway, don't we refer to the challenges by the number of stations?
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al
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Post by al »

Just to add my thoughts -

Any new configuration for any challenge has to wipe the slate clean as far as records go, with the previous records going in a sort of 'Hall of Fame'. I do agree with Soup Dragon, however, that a new record for a smaller configuration at a slower, or proportionally slower, time than the pre-existing 'bigger' record will be a hollow victory. It will, however, still be a victory - for a short time! It may just motivate more of us to go out there and grab that record for ourselves.
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jonny
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Post by jonny »

It's bizarre that we're even arguing about this.

It's obvious that if the configuration gets smaller, then the previous record should still stand.

If you, for example, were on a NLL train from Richmond to Gunnersbury in an all stations attempt, but fell asleep and forgot to get off at Gunnersbury, would your attempt be invalidated by the fact that you had visited South Acton? No.

If GWR decided to not make us visit Shoreditch any more, would we take Hakan's record away from him? No.

Point made. Rant over.
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