Trainblock

[GuyBarry]

B: King's Cross/St Pancras

On my 21st move, I think I've finally cracked it...

[The Orange One]

Yes you have. Well done! Disappointed I didn't get to use Oxford Circus again.

[GuyBarry]

What a marathon contest - three days and 21 moves each! I was quite exhausted last night. And to think I originally claimed a win on my third move

It's obviously possible to construct all sorts of obscure routes to avoid blocked stations - far more often than I initially realized. It might be interesting to consider an alternative version of the game where players were limited to (say) two changes per move. I quite like the "unrestricted" version but I'm wondering if it might be rather off-putting to newcomers.

A couple of issues with the rules came up during the course of that game, particularly the thing about reversing. Near the beginning of the thread I said that a move like New Cross to New Cross Gate via Surrey Quays was valid because there was no direct connection. However, because Surrey Quays isn't marked as an "interchange", it's actually invalid under rule (4) as currently written. This doesn't make any difference in most cases, because you can continue to Canada Water and reverse, but if Canada Water is blocked then you can't. To be honest this doesn't seem entirely logical and the rules need clarifying. Which option do you think is best?
(a) No reversing allowed at all;
(b) Reversing allowed at any station;
(c) Reversing allowed only at interchanges (as now).

The other issue was the one with Willesden Junction, where it's not clear from the map whether the line from Shepherd's Bush meets the North London line or not. I'm happy to accept that it should be considered to do so, as it does in reality. Are there any other stations where similar clarification is required?

I was tripped up by the Sutton loop more than once - it seems that you can put together a continuous route between pretty much any two Southern stations when you take that into account. If you take the rules entirely literally, though, the section from Streatham via Wimbledon to Sutton is in a different colour from the rest and shouldn't be considered part of the Southern network, but that seems a bit silly. What do you think?

[The Orange One]

Yes, it was much longer than A: Hoxton, B: Kew Gardens wasn't it! Or for that matter A: Southfields, B: Imperial Wharf as we're talking Southern.

Imperial Wharf - Battersea Park is not direct (Sutton Loop only goes one way). And we're forgetting the Southeastern loops (at the very right).

If we do that with the Sutton loop we shall have to discount Kensington Olympia from the District, the Herne Hill - Elephant and Castle section of Southeastern and the Tulse Hill - Norwood Junction section of FCC, so this issue is bigger than you think.

We should add a House Rules section to your rulebook (suggestions of rules for newcomers).

I can't find any other versions of Shepherd's Bush. On a side note, have you seen what they've done to Cockfosters on this map?

[GuyBarry]

Yes, it was much longer than A: Hoxton, B: Kew Gardens wasn't it!

I was gobsmacked by that one! Didn't even think of looking down there.

If we do that with the Sutton loop we shall have to discount Kensington Olympia from the District, the Herne Hill - Elephant and Castle section of Southeastern and the Tulse Hill - Norwood Junction section of FCC, so this issue is bigger than you think.

On reflection I think those sections of line should be excluded from future games, as they're marked "limited service". I think they make the game unnecessarily complex and I'll amend the rules appropriately.

Still not sure what to do about reversing - I think I'll leave the rules as they are for now, but add a sentence of clarification.

We should add a House Rules section to your rulebook (suggestions of rules for newcomers).

That's a good idea. There are probably all sorts of variations that could be tried. My feeling is that beginners should probably start with Tubeblock and then progress to Trainblock, but a sort of "limited Trainblock" might be interesting as well.

I can't find any other versions of Shepherd's Bush. On a side note, have you seen what they've done to Cockfosters on this map?

(I think you meant Willesden Junction there.) Yes, "Cockupfosters" might be more apt

[GuyBarry]

Here's the latest version of the rules, with all changes in bold (apart from the rule numbers, some of which have increased by one). The addition to rule 9 is merely by way of explanation and does not alter the game in any way. I've updated the opening post as well.

(1) Trainblock is a game for two players (or teams of players), based on the London Rail and Tube services map. The object of the game is to prevent the other player (or team) from making a legal move.
(2) For the purposes of these rules the definition of "station" is as follows:
(a) A "stop", indicated by one or more check marks on the map (even if it is on more than one line), or
(b) An "interchange", indicated by a white circle or combination of white circles on the map.
For clarity, the stations Turnham Green, Barons Court and Gloucester Road are to be regarded as single "stops".
(3) Lines marked "limited service only" are to be ignored for the purposes of the game (First Capital Connect: Tulse Hill to Norwood Junction, Southern: Streatham via Wimbledon to Sutton, Southeastern: Herne Hill to Elephant & Castle, and District: Earl's Court to Kensington (Olympia)).
(4) A "connection" is defined as any route between two stations that can be continuously traced using a line in one colour (or colours), without turning through acute angles. This takes no account of whether services actually run along these routes. For clarity, there is a continuous Overground line from Shepherd's Bush through Willesden Junction to Kensal Rise. The Southeastern line running northwards from Blackfriars is presumed to terminate at City Thameslink.
(5) A "journey" is defined as any route from one station to another exclusively using "connections" as defined in rule 4 and changing at "interchanges" as defined in rule 2(b). Reversing is permitted at interchanges but not at stops.

TWO-PLAYER VERSION

Play proceeds as follows:

(6) Player A chooses any "stop" as defined in rule 2(a).
(7) Player B chooses any "stop" as defined in rule 2(a) that does not have a connection to the stop chosen by player A.
(8) Players A and B now move to stations alternately, according to the following criteria:
(a) Neither player may have moved to the station previously in the game.
(b) There must NOT be a connection between the station moved to and the player's previous station.
(c) There must be a journey from the player's previous station to the new station that does not pass through any stations that are "blocked" by the other player, as defined by rule 9.
(9) All stations that have connections to a player's current station are "blocked" to the other player. E.g. a player at Tottenham Hale blocks all Victoria line stations, all stations to Liverpool Street via Clapton, and all stations from Northumberland Park to Broxbourne, but does NOT block Stoke Newington or St James Street.
(10) When one player does not have a legal move the game is over and the other player wins.

MULTI-PLAYER VERSION

This is like the two-player version except that "player A" and "player B" should be replaced by "team A" and "team B". Anyone is free to make a move for either team A or team B, but having made a move cannot then move for the other team in the same game. If two players respond to the same move, only the first move posted is accepted.

If four players or more are involved, they may choose to operate the additional rule "No player can make two consecutive moves for the same team". This should be agreed in advance of play.

TRAINBLOCK LIGHT

This is the same as regular Trainblock but a maximum of two changes of line are allowed per move, i.e. rule 5 is replaced by:
(5') A "journey" is defined as any route from one station to another exclusively using no more than three "connections" as defined in rule 4 and changing at no more than two "interchanges" as defined in rule 2(b). Reversing is permitted at interchanges but not at stops.

[GuyBarry]

So, would anyone like to try out the "Trainblock Light" variation then? Rules are the same as for the standard game except that players are limited to two changes per move.

A: Camden Road

[tractakid]

I still haven't played trainblock, but I don't like the look of the rule changes. An interchange, surely, is a place where you can change trains and reach a different adjacent station? I also dislike the exclusion of limited services.

[GuyBarry]

I still haven't played trainblock, but I don't like the look of the rule changes. An interchange, surely, is a place where you can change trains and reach a different adjacent station?

Well OK then, we're left with either "no reversing at all" or "reversing permitted anywhere". I really don't mind which is adopted, as reversing is a move that's rarely employed in the game, but we need to have some rule about it.

I also dislike the exclusion of limited services.

Again, I'm not too bothered. I think the inclusion of the Sutton Loop makes the game too fussy (I actually won one game without realizing because of it), but I'm willing to hear alternatives. All I want is a coherent set of rules for a sensible game.

Why don't you try out the current set of rules and see how they work?

Can I just add one thing please - this is an abstract strategy game, using the map as a game board. It's not fundamentally about railways or trains. As tubeguru observed earlier, "it doesn't matter whether a bloody train runs or not".

[GuyBarry]

Here's my challenge to tractakid: you choose. You can accept or reject any changes I've proposed to the rules, and I'll take you on. Just tell me which rules you want to play under and make a start.

[tractakid]

Code: Select all

(1) Trainblock is a game for two players (or teams of players), based on the London Rail and Tube services map. The object of the game is to prevent the other player (or team) from making a legal move.
(2) For the purposes of these rules the definition of "station" is as follows:
(a) A "stop", any station with 2 or fewer neighbouring stations on all lines combined
(b) An "interchange", indicated by any station with more than 2 neighbouring stops on all lines combined
(3) Lines marked "limited service only" are treated as equal to other lines
(4) A "connection" is defined as any route between two stations that can be continuously traced using a line in one colour (or colours), without turning through acute angles. This takes no account of whether services actually run along these routes. For clarity, there is a continuous Overground line from Shepherd's Bush through Willesden Junction to Kensal Rise. (but not from Shepherds Bush to Watford DC line despite appearing as an obtuse angle) The Southeastern line running northwards from Blackfriars is presumed to terminate at City Thameslink.
(5) A "journey" is defined as any route from one station to another exclusively using "connections" as defined in rule 4 and changing at "interchanges" as defined in rule 2(b). Reversing is now redundant, as far as I can tell.
TWO-PLAYER VERSION

Play proceeds as follows:

(6) Player A chooses any "stop" as defined in rule 2(a).
(7) Player B chooses any "stop" as defined in rule 2(a) that does not have a connection to the stop chosen by player A.
(8) Players A and B now move to stations alternately, according to the following criteria:
(a) Neither player may have moved to the station previously in the game.
(b) There must NOT be a connection between the station moved to and the player's previous station.
(c) There must be a journey from the player's previous station to the new station that does not pass through any stations that are "blocked" by the other player, as defined by rule 9.
(9) All stations that have connections to a player's current station are "blocked" to the other player. E.g. a player at Tottenham Hale blocks all Victoria line stations, all stations to Liverpool Street via Clapton, and all stations from Northumberland Park to Broxbourne, but does NOT block Stoke Newington or St James Street.
(10) When one player does not have a legal move the game is over and the other player wins.

St James' Park.

I shant be able to pay much attention to this game tonight, so you have plenty of time to make your next move.

[GuyBarry]

Hey, I didn't say you could make up your own rules! Let's have a look:

(2) For the purposes of these rules the definition of "station" is as follows:
(a) A "stop", any station with 2 or fewer neighbouring stations on all lines combined

So (e.g.) Surrey Quays isn't a "stop" then? It has four neighbouring stations (Canada Water, New Cross, New Cross Gate, Queens Road Peckham).

(b) An "interchange", indicated by any station with more than 2 neighbouring stops on all lines combined

Piccadilly Circus doesn't have any neighbouring stops (by your definition). Therefore it's neither a stop nor an interchange, so presumably not a station. Except that you've used "station" in the definition of "stop", so the whole thing's circular.

(5) A "journey" is defined as any route from one station to another exclusively using "connections" as defined in rule 4 and changing at "interchanges" as defined in rule 2(b). Reversing is now redundant, as far as I can tell.

I don't see why this version of the rules makes reversing redundant.

[tractakid]

Surrey Quays is clearly an interchange. Any station that has more than 2 neighbours is an interchange, any station that has 2 or 1 neighbour is a non interchange. That makes sense, surely? With this definition in place I can't think of a reason to reverse. Any situation where it was useful is rectified due to the redefinition of an interchange. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[GuyBarry]

Surrey Quays is clearly an interchange. Any station that has more than 2 neighbours is an interchange, any station that has 2 or 1 neighbour is a non interchange. That makes sense, surely?

Well we can use that definition if you like, but you've just redefined several stations as interchanges that previously weren't - not just Surrey Quays but Kennington, Camden Town, North Acton, Barnes, Westferry, Finchley Central, Alexandra Palace and no doubt others. Seems a bit underhand to just sneak in a rule change like that.

With this definition in place I can't think of a reason to reverse. Any situation where it was useful is rectified due to the redefinition of an interchange. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Try Clapham Junction to Ealing Broadway, with the Circle and Bakerloo lines blocked (a similar move came up in the last game). As far as I can see there is no way of performing this move without reversing at either Turnham Green, Stamford Brook or Ravenscourt Park.

EDIT: Oh I get it now - you've redefined Turnham Green as an interchange, so the move is legal.

The trouble with changing the definitions like this is that you've messed up the rules about which stations people can start at. Were you really trying to prevent people from starting at Surrey Quays? As far as I can see, the same effect could be achieved by leaving the definitions as now and stipulating that reversing is allowed at any station.

[tractakid]

I wasn't trying to be sneaky or underhand, I was just trying to express what I thought made sense. The interchange 'blob' on the map is inconsistently used, what's the real difference between say Rayners Lane and Surrey Quays? My failing was slightly bad wording. I certainly wasn't trying to change the spirit of the game.