Attempt 19 - 9th November 2012

[tractakid]

It really shouldn't matter whether or not it is an Olympia day. A completion is a completion, no matter which day you choose to do it on. Saturdays, Sundays, Olympia days, or weekdays.

?? Of course it matters. An Olympia day you have lots of trains, a non-exhib day and you've got a very limited amount of trains to get so your route must very drastically to cater for that. that's why i've split up times on my website into exhib and non-exhib sections. it's faaar easier to get a completion on an exhib day as opposed to an non-exhib one, that's so obviously clear to me.

if anyone has any fast (sub 17:30) times they want listed on my site, they're more than welcome to get in touch with me. i'm not psychic.

It really shouldn't. A person is freely able to choose the day they do the challenge on, and will have a route that works with Olympia no matter how many services it has. When there are just the morning and evening trains, there are fewer options available, of course. But those options won't be slower. So, the times with or without an exhibition service are comparable.

[al]

Whilst the route on paper may be comparable, in practice having 'unlimited' trains is invaluable, as The Raven found to his cost this morning.

[tractakid]

Whilst the route on paper may be comparable, in practice having 'unlimited' trains is invaluable, as The Raven found to his cost this morning.

But, times are only relevant when completions happen. If you are comparing statistics for completions vs non completions, yes, it is highly relevant! But, if you've completed with the limited Olympia service, there is no reason why that time would be any slower than a non Olympia service.

[geofftech]

planes

[tractakid]

4 attempts, one exhibition day. Never missed Olympia, the only time there was a problem was on my first completion, where a faulty service cost me some minutes. Had the service been as it should, who knows how much quicker the time would have been.

The only reason a non Exhibition day would be slower is due to a faulty plan, bearing in mind that any plan, exhibition or not, can fall apart on the day. I agree it is more difficult, but it is NOT SLOWER.

If the trains on the non-exhibition day all took twice as long to get from Olympia to Earl's Court, yes, count them separately. As this is NOT the case, completion times can be just as quick. It's all about having a plan that works

And Geoff, please explain to me how it is NOT my choice when next to attempt the challenge? Which day am I forced to do it on?

[greatkingrat]

You're welcome to try and convince Guinness to introduce a "Fastest time to visit all 270 Underground stations when there is no exhibition service to Olympia" but somehow I don't think you'll get very far.

You don't have to do an attempt on a non-exhibition day if you don't want to - just wait for the next exhibition day if you prefer.

[joy54]

The only reason a non Exhibition day would be slower is due to a faulty plan, bearing in mind that any plan, exhibition or not, can fall apart on the day. I agree it is more difficult, but it is NOT SLOWER.

If the trains on the non-exhibition day all took twice as long to get from Olympia to Earl's Court, yes, count them separately. As this is NOT the case, completion times can be just as quick. It's all about having a plan that works

I have to agree with Geoff and al here.

On non-exhibition days, compromises have to be made in order to catch the handful of trains that operate. Whether that compromise be flexibility (i.e. having to get yourself to Earls Court for 1730) or on route (starting from HT5 instead of Chesham), it most certainly does have impact on overall journey times.

The best way to describe it I think is to give an extreme example. Lets say for arguments sake that the Chesham and Watford branches were both shuttle services. The Chesham shuttle only operates between 0700 and 0900 and the Watford shuttle between 1700 and 1900. Obviously the fastest route would involve coming down from Amersham and knocking off both branches at the same time. But in this example you are forced to visit both at separate times and thus your route planning is constrained. Whilst of course the journey times do not increase, it is the route constraints that move you away from the optimal strategy that adds time.

On my record times, we always had four distinct opportunities to hit Olympia and you basically just waited until for the opportunity that would involve the least waiting time. Challengers are not afforded that luxury anymore.

[tractakid]

On my record times, we always had four distinct opportunities to hit Olympia and you basically just waited until for the opportunity that would involve the least waiting time. Challengers are not afforded that luxury anymore.

Yes they are- they choose to do it on an Exhibition day.

Yes, if your ludicrous Chesham and Watford example did exist, that would almost certainly require a slower time. But, assuming it is similar to Olympia and there are OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE, it is ENTIRELY the challenger's choice whether or not to attempt it on these days. If they do attempt it on this day, they are satisfied with their plan and their time will reflect this. If they don't, no time is set, so no matter. Remember, we are only dealing with whether already set times should be classified differently. If there were no other options available, it was this situation every day, a huge debate about whether the record should be reset follows. Should a change in service or a change in physical infrastructure be the deciding factor, or both? Who knows what Guinness would say, not like it should matter. They have already shown themselves to be incompetent, so I would never care to be the official record holder even if I did beat the the time.

Olympia on a non exhibition day is not like the Chesham and Watford example, however. It is the only station that requires specific times, so on it's own it does not require that a slower time is achieved. Even if another part of the network became time-restricted, it is very likely that it could be done at another time of day anyway, not effecting the time achieved.

[joy54]

It really shouldn't matter whether or not it is an Olympia day.

Yes they are- they choose to do it on an Exhibition day.

What are you trying to say - you have said before than it shouldn't matter whether it was an Olympia day or not. Geoff and others have countered that by saying it does matter.

Now you seem to be saying that there are time discrepancies between the two days but that it is the choice of the challenger which day they go on.

Remember, we are only dealing with whether already set times should be classified differently.

Are we? I wasn't dealing with that, I was dealing with the time differences between the two days.

I certainly don't think I could justify to Guinness for the record to have two classifications although I would request that they permit Saturday record attempts so as to increase the small pool of days for which Olympia operates a full service.

Olympia on a non exhibition day is not like the Chesham and Watford example, however. It is the only station that requires specific times, so on it's own it does not require that a slower time is achieved.

Well yes it does slow times down. I can see your argument that because it is the only station that is time specific your route can be planned around that, but, my point is that the fact your route has to be planned around it reduces flexibility which is vital for fast full network times.

[tractakid]

I am arguing that all completion times should be classified equally, and it is entirely the challenger's choice which day they choose to achieve their time on.

Of course weekend attempts should count. Any attempt ever that involves visiting all 270 stations without using private transport should count!

Responding to your last point... flexibility is NOT vital to achieving a fast time, merely helpful.

[joy54]

I am arguing that all completion times should be classified equally, and it is entirely the challenger's choice which day they choose to achieve their time on.

Of course weekend attempts should count. Any attempt ever that involves visiting all 270 stations without using private transport should count!

Yep. We are in total agreement there.

Responding to your last point... flexibility is NOT vital to achieving a fast time, merely helpful.

Maybe on paper. In the real world flexibility is vital.

[tractakid]

Having said all that, I'll be looking at Exhibition days for a possible future attempt! I want to start at Chesham without ever returning there!

[geofftech]

Yes they are- they choose to do it on an Exhibition day.

and in that, you've just answered your own question about being 'forced' to do it on a certain day. if you only have a route which works with an exhibition service, then you have to wait until certain dates come around. supposing you're really not free to do those dates though? work, study, family or holiday committments, etc... it might mean you can't do it when you want to at all.

the original argument was not about whether it was slower (note i said "slower", in quotes) it was about whether it was more difficult - which it obviously is, as wouldn't you prefer to do it on a day when there wasn't a limited service?

Joy54 (hello SK!) nails it with his summing up.

oh, and i also agree that Saturday attempts should be valid. Guinness are being more than a bit stupid here in saying Saturday attempts are invalid. if you've legitimately travelled to all 270 stations using only public transport, it doesn't matter what day you've done it on - you've done it! obvious, really.

[tractakid]

When I have attempted the challenge, I have picked a route appropriate to the day I have attempted it on. In fact, Olympia can be incredibly EASY on a non exhibition day, it certainly has been for me. The time should not be counted separately. It is completely comparable.