Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

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TeamHelsinki
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by TeamHelsinki » 25 Feb 2018, 15:31

A completion of the FNC counts regardless of how long it takes, doesn't it? So if one only misses Olympia (as in the case of Will1, who posted his first FNC attempt a few days ago), one could go and pick up an Olympia train the following morning and end up with a completion time of perhaps 25 h, yes?

Admittedly it would not have the same feel to it as completing the whole thing within one operating day...

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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by RJSRdg » 25 Feb 2018, 17:14

Indeed they can - one of Friday's competitors did just that and recorded a 27 hour time, which is probably the longest time taken to complete a deliberate FNC!

The general consensus seems to be that no private transport should be used in the intervening period - there was some debate yesterday as to whether a hotel's lift counts as 'private transport'!
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by TeamHelsinki » 25 Feb 2018, 17:53

Surely the spirit if not the letter of the rules is that one must not use private transport BETWEEN STATIONS? After all, would it not be allowable (though completely insane) even under GWR rules to get off the train, take a spin in a taxi, return to the same station and resume the journey? The clock would be running all the time, of course.

Anyone whose completion does extend overnight will most likely not be satisfied with the outcome. In the interests of fair play, though, if someone does suspend their attempt in the evening and then resumes it at the same station in the morning, it should make no difference what they do in the meantime.

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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by Iain » 26 Feb 2018, 07:25

Yup I'd agree. If you finished at Chesham say, then got a taxi overnight to near Olympia which you did the next morning, then I'd say that wasn't in the spirit of the rules. However, if you'd taken the last train to Chesham and your hotel was ten miles away, then it would seem mean spirited to not allow you to take a taxi (as long as you rejoined the network at Chesham)
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by Iain » 26 Feb 2018, 07:34

If a hotel's lift would be "illegal", then surely lifts (and indeed escalators, travolators) within stations would need to be too?
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by TeamHelsinki » 26 Feb 2018, 10:04

There is a case to be made for a hotel lift NOT being private transport:
- it can be used by anyone, not just you (as opposed to a private car)
- it does not cost anything extra to use it (as opposed to a taxi)
- although you have some control over it, you do not have complete control as to when it arrives or where it goes

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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by GuyBarry » 26 Feb 2018, 14:20

Iain wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 07:25
Yup I'd agree. If you finished at Chesham say, then got a taxi overnight to near Olympia which you did the next morning, then I'd say that wasn't in the spirit of the rules.
This gives rise to a puzzle which I think has been discussed before. Let's suppose you finish at Chesham and then use legitimate means (public transport or foot) to get to Olympia. You then wait for the first train to leave Olympia the following morning.

Now the rules say "to `visit' a station, the challenger must arrive and/or depart by an underground train in normal public service". They don't stipulate that you have to arrive at the final station by scheduled Tube train; you can 'visit' the station by departing from it as the rules are written.

But the rules also say that "the clock stops the moment the challenger sets foot on the platform at the last station". And if you 'visit' the station by departing from it rather than arriving at it, that means the clock stops before you technically 'visit' the station.

So, on a strict interpretation of the rules, the time you spend waiting at Olympia is free time. The clock stops before you have to complete the final section of the challenge! You could get to Olympia late at night, put your foot on the platform, stop the clock, stay in a hotel nearby, and then get one of the early morning trains out (doesn't even have to be the first one). The moment the train pulls out, you've completed the challenge, but you can mark your completion time down as being the time you arrived at the station the previous night.

Now I'm pretty certain that if someone actually submitted a record like this, it would be disallowed. The only sensible way of interpreting the rules is that the challenge ends at Earl's Court rather than Kensington Olympia, and that the clock stops when the challenger gets out and puts a foot on the platform there.

But the rules don't actually say that, because they don't consider the possibility of arriving at the last station on foot rather than by Tube train. Or do they?
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by tufnellpark » 26 Feb 2018, 16:44

Yes it was me who took 27 hours and 8 mins to complete a FNC on Friday and Saturday morning. Perfectly valid as I took a N9 bus from Heathrow to my hotel and a 222 bus to Hounslow West in the morning.

I started with xcooler123 at Chesham and we were delayed almost immediately when the train to Amersham arrived 10 mins late. We continued but further delays during the day meant we couldn't make the last Heathrow T4 train. We could have rejigged our route and visited Heathrow earlier leaving only night tube routes to complete later on. But I was staying in a Travelodge near Heathrow so I wanted to finish my day out that way, so continued on our route knowing that I would not be able to visit Heathrow T4.

I had a nice sleep, a cooked breakfast and then headed to Hounslow West and caught a train to Heathrow T4 for a relaxed finish. :D
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by Iain » 26 Feb 2018, 18:55

It's an interesting question, which I've seen before too. I think the issue is that if you stop the clock when you arrive at Olympia on foot, then you haven't (according to challenge rules) visited Olympia, as you've neither arrivedat or departed from the station by tube/another train using the same rails. If the wording didn't include setting foot on the platform, then then in theory you could stop the watch as soon as you left Olympia.

Having said that, what counts as "departed"? If the train starts to move off and then for some reason grinds to a halt with one carriage still alongside the platform, and the doors open so you can step onto the platform, is that a departure?

I know there was a record recently that started at Chalfont and used a bus to get from Amersham to Chesham - a finish using the same bus would raise a similar question. I think you'd need to wait until you set foot on the platform at Chalfont, even though you'd already visited it on the way up to Amersham
Last edited by Iain on 26 Feb 2018, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by GuyBarry » 26 Feb 2018, 19:55

Iain wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:55
It's an interesting question, which I've seen before too. I think the issue is that if you stop the clock when you arrive at Olympia on foot, then you haven't (according to challenge rules) visited Olympia, as you've neither at or departed from the station by tube/another train using the same rails.If the wording didn't include setting foot on the platform, then then in theory you could stop the watch as soon as you left Olympia.
Yes, I think that's the common-sense way of looking at it. Here's the thread where it was originally discussed:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2725

My point (then as now) is that because the rules don't explicitly disallow a finish where you arrive at the final station on foot, they theoretically give rise to a scenario where the clock stops before the final "visit" has taken place - and yet the challenge has been completed according to the rules, it's just that the clock hasn't been running for the last part of it.

This is nonsensical. Either the rules should explicitly disallow finishes of this type, or they should stipulate when the clock stops running if you leave the final station by Tube train.
Having set that, what counts as "departed"? If the train starts to move off and then for some reason grinds to a halt with one carriage still alongside the platform, and the doors open so you can step onto the platform, is that a departure?
I suppose that if you can still step back onto the platform, you haven't technically departed the station.

It does raise the question of what would happen if the train got a little way outside the station, developed a fault and then went back to the platform again... but that's rather unlikely!
I know there was a record recently that started at Chalfont and used a bus to get from Amersham to Chesham - a finish using the same bus would raise a similar question. I think you'd need to wait until you set foot on the platform at Chalfont, even though you'd already visited it on the way up to Amersham
When I did my "not the Victoria Line" challenge, I remember having an issue about when it officially started, as we had to catch a bus from Pimlico to Vauxhall for the first section. Of course we had the luxury of being able to make up our own rules for that one :)
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by crypto » 26 Feb 2018, 20:59

While you're all debating that, I attempted and completed my first full network! Andrew C kindly asked to join in and with much help from his superior experience, we managed (what I imagine is) a commendable result!

Stopped over in High Wycombe because it was the most convenient place to get to Chesham at far-too-early. Bus driver wouldn't accept my tenner for the ride, but seemed perfectly content with just letting me ride without paying. Win, I guess!

We chose to start late-ish due to the quick route to North Harrow. Everything just rolled out perfectly. No wait more than a few minutes. The first hiccup of the day happened at Harrow-on-the-Hill as a train was taken out of service but fortunately, another rolled in to take us to Preston Road.

Most of the route planning took place during the day to try and account for getting around the infrequent services. On the whole, this proved to be a good idea, though not without a couple of minor setbacks. Mill Hill East was grabbed with a train a few minutes wait away. High Barnet saw a convenient bus departing for... New Barnet :( Unfortunately we had to run the rest to Cockfosters. All lovely and uphill, yay. A few minutes wait for a Piccadilly train then back down to the centre. Lots of number crunching was done to see how the central line was going to work out. It didn't so we sodded off elsewhere.

We had our first major bout of bad luck at Canons Park, where, after a flawless bus journey, we arrived at the platform to a seven minute wait. Made up for a little at Stanmore. Despite the run around the buffers, it was in the door, out the station. A second stab at the central line proved to be a good decision. We were also joined by Matt, on standby to offer support in the form of conversation, pasties and chicken nuggets. Lots of short waits for Central line trains. Lovely stuff!

Nothing much of note around the Wimbledon loop. Matt bid goodbye at Clapham North, and we continued onwards towards Upminster to make an extremely tight connection. We sprint across the bridge to see our C2C pulling out (early, we note) and the next train cancelled... boo. Time for Olympia. We planned a run from West Kensington, but were getting tetchy over the time, we bailed at Barons, making the train. From here, our luck in connections ran out as we faced excruciatingly long waits at Ickenham, Uxbridge, Rayners Lane and West Acton (after the North Ealing ticket barrier tried munching my ticket). A few sparks of luck remained though. A perfectly timed U1 took us most of the way to Ickenham and the Richmond cross-platform was so quick, that we both got clattered by the closing doors. Finally, we made it to Heathrow 2,3 to a 10+ minute wait for our final train.

It was exhausting, but an accomplishment. Andrew's help and company was fantastic (I swear he did all of the work, but he disagrees). I might even think about doing this again. We'll wait and see :D

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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by TeamHelsinki » 26 Feb 2018, 21:13

But there is a provision in the rules that any rules lawyer worth their salt could argue applies to this probably quite rare case.

Consider: The rules state that the clock starts when the doors close on the train departing from the first station. It is not too much of a leap to claim that if arriving at the last station by foot and departing by train, then the clock stops when the doors close on the departing train.

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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by Iain » 26 Feb 2018, 21:31

Ah right, and I made many of the same points, including the train pulling out one!

Here's another scenario - you start the day at Heathrow, and go around the network, finishing in the NW corner at Chesham. Now, because you stepped on the platform at Chesham the previous week when scouting, you claim a time of -168 hours.

Obviously nonsensical, but if we're following your literal interpretation of the rules then it makes sense :D
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by GuyBarry » 26 Feb 2018, 21:46

TeamHelsinki wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 21:13
But there is a provision in the rules that any rules lawyer worth their salt could argue applies to this probably quite rare case.
I'm not sure if it is that rare. As Iain has pointed out, how about a finish when you travel from Chalfont to Amersham by tube and do the last step to Chesham by bus? Can you then enter the station, keep one foot on the platform as you board the departing train and count that moment as the end of the challenge?
Consider: The rules state that the clock starts when the doors close on the train departing from the first station. It is not too much of a leap to claim that if arriving at the last station by foot and departing by train, then the clock stops when the doors close on the departing train.
Seems sensible, but it's not in the rules. One could equally well argue that the clock should stop when the doors open on the departing train.

And can you arrive at the first station by train and leave it on foot? How would the rules work then?
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Re: Tube Olympics 2018: Event 5- Full Network

Post by tangy » 26 Feb 2018, 22:46

GuyBarry wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 14:20
The only sensible way of interpreting the rules is that the challenge ends at Earl's Court rather than Kensington Olympia, and that the clock stops when the challenger gets out and puts a foot on the platform there.
This is how I adapt the GWR rules to all the Alternative Challenges that I adjudicate. If a challenger arrives at their last required station on foot (or other valid means such as NR train or a bus) then they must keep thier watch going until they alight onto the platform at the next station along (in any direction) for the attempt to be accepted.
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