Guinness world record regulations

Discuss the full Tube Challenge here
ITFCShirts
Zone 1
Posts: 22
Joined: 10 Mar 2017, 17:12

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by ITFCShirts » 11 Aug 2017, 15:06

Resurrecting this post as I try to ensure I have considered everything ahead of an upcoming attempt, and after a NW corner test run this morning (that I'll try to write up separately).

I know that is not the forum I have to convince, but what I am interpreting from GWRs is that the main aim is provide enough burden of proof to show that no possible cheating took place. Incidentally, the recent BBC article around independent witnesses and records made me think about this too (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-40751179)

With that in mind, what am I attempting to do get enough evidence:

- Go-Pro strapped to the chest - I've worked out that the battery life is the limiting factor here. Each battery only last 1:45mins at the lowest resolution video. I've managed to borrow 3 batteries, but simple maths says that still isn't enough. 32GB SD card, allows me to film all 12 miles or so of runs in the day. I'm considering whether platform changes/line changes need videoing too, or whether it is just me that thinks proving the speed of the long changes like Green Park, King Cross, etc is worth documenting, if time-stamped photos/logbook/train number/etc prove the trains I'm changing onto. GWR says to include a minimum of, "a) Footage of the start of the attempt, showing the doors closing, and with a timepiece clearly visible; b) any transfers between lines made on foot or by scheduled public transport; c) The end of the attempt, showing the challenger’s arrival on to the final platform, and with a timepiece clearly visible. " - I'm taking "transfers between lines made on foot" as meaning the ones outside of the network, but I may go safe and try and do all changes, but it just adds an extra thing to remember to do at every transition point.... and one more thing to potentially forget

- Photos - Found a great free app simply called "Time Stamp" (or 99p to remove the ads), that time stamps date and time to the nearest second. GWR says, "It is essential that evidence of a visit to each station is provided", "A photograph must be taken of the arrival at each station. The photograph must include the time the photograph was taken, either as a digital timestamp or in the form of a clock visible in the frame of the image" - It doesn't say that I have to be in the them. Getting the roundels/station name is ok if that is all that is required. Getting a selfie with me and the roundel, without rushing up and down the carriage and scaring other passengers is proving more challenging :lol: :roll: I'm also considering using this to keep a track of doors opening/closing on each station, rather than keeping a log book as I go (I might do both). I'm going to work on the basis of getting my ugly mug in every photo that I possibly can (central London during peak going to tougher), but accepting that getting a time stamped photo of EVERY station is more important (without having to fall back on some of the previous articles I've seen of justifying based on time stamped station either side)

QUESTION: Doublebacks - I'm clearly going through places like Hillingdon and Croxley twice on my double-backs. Do people think I need to capture photographic evidence of both times, or is the log-book sufficient?

- Train numbers - I've accepted that I'm not going to get every single one, particularly if I'm going to be making some tight changes when the train is already in the station. So far on my test runs, the train number HAS been the one I was expecting on the WTT. I will at least be able to identify which train number I planned to get, and verify when I did in fact get that one. No mention of photos of train numbers required, but I might try to capture them. Also realised at the end of each line (except central terminus like Brixton and Elephant), that keeping my eyes peeled as I come into the station on one train I can potentially spy it for the outgoing one I plan to catch. I don't see any reasonable way of waiting for a train to depart just to attempt to catch the train number, which may not be displayed on the rear of the train

Log Book - GWR says, "A logbook detailing every stage of the journey, i.e. the time of arrival and departure from each station, the train number, line changes, commutes between lines and stations, etc. must be maintained. This book should illustrate clearly the route followed". I have a planned route, with some planned diversions if there are delays/my legs fail on some of the runs, so I will attempt to pre-populate the main bits, and over-write anything that changes, adding in the departure and arrival times of each station/train. I've really no idea what purpose this serves to GWR, and whether that is determined by doors opening/closing (clear on the start and finish of attempt), and how accurate that needs to be for them to verify. As earlier, I will attempt to time stamp photo the arrival, roundel and departure, and then log then into the book between stations. I presume for transitions, only the arrival time needs to be noted...?

Oyster Card log - easily downloaded, and therefore swaying me over a paper ticket. Already set up on-line and tracking all my journeys for over a year (which is quite scary to think I have a permanent record of where I've been - future telling police evidence?!)

QUESTION: I've seen several people suggest oyster card with day travel card over contactless. No one seems to be clear why. Cost should be the same due to capping, and if OSI triggers mean they charge me twice on the day to go over the cap, I will simply challenge the fare after the event (it will be easy to see from my history that I've travelled all lines and all day!)

Witnesses - GWR says, "a book must be made available for additional independent witnesses to sign.... for each potential witness: a) Date and Time, b) Location, c) Name and d) Signature". It doesn't really say how many required, or how frequent, but I'm sure I read somewhere that at least every two hours. I'm going to aim to grab one on each of the longer commutes, with ideally one on each tube line, with an aim of 10-15 over the course of the day. Does anyone know how many would be considered a reasonable number?

Start and finish witnesses - An ongoing saga, of who counts as independent, and how many people I can rope in at each end of the day. Clear that I can't carry the master stopwatch, but attempting to find someone to transport it for me (unclear whether they also need to be independent). Arguably the hardest bit of the challenge!


This definitely makes a solo effort far more difficult, although I can see why they want to maintain integrity of records - but it definitely has felt like more of an effort considering what evidence will be accepted (and may not ultimately...) vs some of the route planning and training runs!!!

What do other people think? Presume some of these were in place when previous records were set, but the videos/witnesses numbers/independence seems to be new since the record was last set?

User avatar
Steeevooo
All Zones
Posts: 1068
Joined: 14 Jul 2005, 11:23
Location: Rainham, Essex

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by Steeevooo » 11 Aug 2017, 15:27

ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06

- Go-Pro strapped to the chest - I've worked out that the battery life is the limiting factor here. Each battery only last 1:45mins at the lowest resolution video. I've managed to borrow 3 batteries, but simple maths says that still isn't enough. 32GB SD card, allows me to film all 12 miles or so of runs in the day. I'm considering whether platform changes/line changes need videoing too, or whether it is just me that thinks proving the speed of the long changes like Green Park, King Cross, etc is worth documenting, if time-stamped photos/logbook/train number/etc prove the trains I'm changing onto. GWR says to include a minimum of, "a) Footage of the start of the attempt, showing the doors closing, and with a timepiece clearly visible; b) any transfers between lines made on foot or by scheduled public transport; c) The end of the attempt, showing the challenger’s arrival on to the final platform, and with a timepiece clearly visible. " - I'm taking "transfers between lines made on foot" as meaning the ones outside of the network, but I may go safe and try and do all changes, but it just adds an extra thing to remember to do at every transition point.... and one more thing to potentially forget.
They will want full video footage of the entire attempt. Having uploaded videos of the start, finish, every single interchange (internal and external) and random on-train videos was deemed not enough by GWR for Andi and my Berlin attempt. I explained to them that the only bits of the challenge that were not filmed were the sections where we were physically on trains (as evidenced by the interchange videos, the time-stamped photos, the log book, the witness statements, the train numbers....), but this was dismissed.
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
- Photos - Found a great free app simply called "Time Stamp" (or 99p to remove the ads), that time stamps date and time to the nearest second. GWR says, "It is essential that evidence of a visit to each station is provided", "A photograph must be taken of the arrival at each station. The photograph must include the time the photograph was taken, either as a digital timestamp or in the form of a clock visible in the frame of the image" - It doesn't say that I have to be in the them. Getting the roundels/station name is ok if that is all that is required. Getting a selfie with me and the roundel, without rushing up and down the carriage and scaring other passengers is proving more challenging :lol: :roll: I'm also considering using this to keep a track of doors opening/closing on each station, rather than keeping a log book as I go (I might do both). I'm going to work on the basis of getting my ugly mug in every photo that I possibly can (central London during peak going to tougher), but accepting that getting a time stamped photo of EVERY station is more important (without having to fall back on some of the previous articles I've seen of justifying based on time stamped station either side)

QUESTION: Doublebacks - I'm clearly going through places like Hillingdon and Croxley twice on my double-backs. Do people think I need to capture photographic evidence of both times, or is the log-book sufficient?
Yes, you will need photos of every station stop that you make on your challenge attempt. If you visit (for example) King's Cross 5 times, you will need 5 photos of King's Cross.
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
- Train numbers - I've accepted that I'm not going to get every single one, particularly if I'm going to be making some tight changes when the train is already in the station. So far on my test runs, the train number HAS been the one I was expecting on the WTT. I will at least be able to identify which train number I planned to get, and verify when I did in fact get that one. No mention of photos of train numbers required, but I might try to capture them. Also realised at the end of each line (except central terminus like Brixton and Elephant), that keeping my eyes peeled as I come into the station on one train I can potentially spy it for the outgoing one I plan to catch. I don't see any reasonable way of waiting for a train to depart just to attempt to catch the train number, which may not be displayed on the rear of the train
I'm pretty certain that train numbers are displayed on the rear of every train, since this is the front of the train when it is running in the opposite direction!
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
Log Book - GWR says, "A logbook detailing every stage of the journey, i.e. the time of arrival and departure from each station, the train number, line changes, commutes between lines and stations, etc. must be maintained. This book should illustrate clearly the route followed". I have a planned route, with some planned diversions if there are delays/my legs fail on some of the runs, so I will attempt to pre-populate the main bits, and over-write anything that changes, adding in the departure and arrival times of each station/train. I've really no idea what purpose this serves to GWR, and whether that is determined by doors opening/closing (clear on the start and finish of attempt), and how accurate that needs to be for them to verify. As earlier, I will attempt to time stamp photo the arrival, roundel and departure, and then log then into the book between stations. I presume for transitions, only the arrival time needs to be noted...?
You will need to log the exact time (to the second) that the doors open at each station, and the exact time that they close again, for every station stop made. Yes, for transitions the exact arrival time needs to be noted, and then the exact departure time on your next service.
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
Oyster Card log - easily downloaded, and therefore swaying me over a paper ticket. Already set up on-line and tracking all my journeys for over a year (which is quite scary to think I have a permanent record of where I've been - future telling police evidence?!)

QUESTION: I've seen several people suggest oyster card with day travel card over contactless. No one seems to be clear why. Cost should be the same due to capping, and if OSI triggers mean they charge me twice on the day to go over the cap, I will simply challenge the fare after the event (it will be easy to see from my history that I've travelled all lines and all day!)
I'm not sure what your question is here? IMO travelcards just mean that there is a lower risk of something 'going wrong' with your Oyster card as opposed to using PAYG, but I guess there isn't really much difference in the long-run.
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
Witnesses - GWR says, "a book must be made available for additional independent witnesses to sign.... for each potential witness: a) Date and Time, b) Location, c) Name and d) Signature". It doesn't really say how many required, or how frequent, but I'm sure I read somewhere that at least every two hours. I'm going to aim to grab one on each of the longer commutes, with ideally one on each tube line, with an aim of 10-15 over the course of the day. Does anyone know how many would be considered a reasonable number?
A reasonable number? That is anyone's guess!! I've always endeavoured to get one witness statement per hour though.
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
Start and finish witnesses - An ongoing saga, of who counts as independent, and how many people I can rope in at each end of the day. Clear that I can't carry the master stopwatch, but attempting to find someone to transport it for me (unclear whether they also need to be independent). Arguably the hardest bit of the challenge!
As per the long-running saga - GWR interpretation as communicated to me is that the independent master stopwatch operator must be truly independent and therefore not known to the participants of the challenge, as otherwise they are not considered impartial and will be thought of as having something to gain from fulfilling the role. You will also ideally need two such people at the start and two at the finish
ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
This definitely makes a solo effort far more difficult, although I can see why they want to maintain integrity of records - but it definitely has felt like more of an effort considering what evidence will be accepted (and may not ultimately...) vs some of the route planning and training runs!!!
And it is for this reason that a large number of people, myself included, have given up trying to break these types of records, since the requirements placed upon us by GWR have essentially taken all the joy out of doing it.

ITFCShirts
Zone 1
Posts: 22
Joined: 10 Mar 2017, 17:12

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by ITFCShirts » 11 Aug 2017, 16:18

Thanks Steeevooo!

It is definitely making me consider whether I should just make an attempt that would be considered valid by this forum, rather than trying to please the GWR. Recognition by this group of a fair attempt arguably more important a placement in a book.

Alternatively, I might attempt to do all the things that I possibly can, and then use some journalistic contacts to make a fuss about how impossible it is with current technology to fulfill all their requirements!

16 hours of continuous footage? Is that possible with anything currently on the market, within reasonable reach of the casual tube challenger? I wonder if a very low quality video might allow for longer footage - but the battery life seems to be the key thing, rather than the size of the storage on the device - SD cards are easy to purchase multiples of

User avatar
tubeguru
Site Administrator
Posts: 8841
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 22:08
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by tubeguru » 11 Aug 2017, 16:55

ITFCShirts wrote:
11 Aug 2017, 15:06
Go-Pro strapped to the chest
Unless you have some kind of gyroscopic stabiliser attached to the camera, you will suffer from a terrible picture involving the camera swaying from side-to-side as your body rotates. I know this because I tried my GoPro strapped to my chest and got that result. It makes you sick watching it.

It's also quite fiddly to wear a GoPro on your chest with a stabiliser, as the thing digs into your body. Unless, of course, you've got one and have worked out how to rig it up.
One thing only do I know, and that is that I know nothing - Socrates.

Champion of bugger all, 2004 to 2018
Member of sweet FA

User avatar
greatkingrat
All Zones
Posts: 2434
Joined: 11 Feb 2005, 00:35

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by greatkingrat » 11 Aug 2017, 17:12

If Guinness get sick watching it, that is their problem!
Soon to be yet another forum train driver

ITFCShirts
Zone 1
Posts: 22
Joined: 10 Mar 2017, 17:12

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by ITFCShirts » 11 Aug 2017, 22:23

Agreed! It says video, not what the quality of recording is like!

As fiddly as it would be, I wonder if filming every train door open/photo, and turning the camera off to conserve battery when I couldn't possibly be doing anything other than sitting ON A TRAIN going between two points that I've filmed. It really is demoralising thinking I have a potential record worthy route, but have the joy sucked out of it, and with different rules to the way the record is currently set.

RJSRdg
Zone 6
Posts: 738
Joined: 16 Mar 2015, 00:35

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by RJSRdg » 11 Aug 2017, 22:36

I'm still wondering if TfL CCTV footage (obtainable via a Subject Access Request for a £10 fee) counts as an 'Independent Witness'! Would depend whether it's date stamped to the second, though....
Currently 4th place in the Bottle Challenge league table
Currently 3rd place Zone1/Zone 2 Challenge

tufnellpark
Zone 3
Posts: 106
Joined: 06 Apr 2015, 10:53
Location: Lewes, Sussex

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by tufnellpark » 13 Aug 2017, 12:04

Having succesfully done two Guinness World Records, I've always thought that they need enough evidence to be sure that you haven't cheated, which is fair enough. You will never have a complete set of photos with a roundel and time in every one. You will never have every train running number. The Oyster record will only have ins and outs, not show every journey. But put together you should be able to provide enough evidence to pass an audit and answer any questions they may have. To collect all this evidence, I think you need two people on an attempt.

However having heard of Andi and Steve's problems with Berlin it makes you wonder, what will be sufficient evidence to satisfy GWR? I don't think the GWR rules have changed but they are being interpreted more strictly. Following the news of their Berlin rejection, I challenged Guinness about the practicalities of making a 16 hour video. All I got was a garbled response and no help or advice. From research I don't think there is any way to do this, without numerous spare batteries and memory cards and then you have remember to change them whilst logging and taking photos. I've also noticed there is a new name on the unhelpful responses from Guinness, so suspect it is all down to a new employee who doesn't really understand the nature of tube challenges. However that doesn't really help us.

ITFC, good luck with your GWR attempt but my final piece of advice would be to get a running mate, who can do half the work for you!
London FNC 16:14:10 Paris Metro GWR 13:23:33
London Z1 WR 02:36:30 London Overground WR 09:07:35
Land's End to John O'Groats by bus WR 3 days, 8 hours, 17mins

dstock17
Zone 4
Posts: 319
Joined: 14 Jan 2017, 20:08

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by dstock17 » 13 Aug 2017, 18:27

tufnellpark wrote:
13 Aug 2017, 12:04
Having succesfully done two Guinness World Records, I've always thought that they need enough evidence to be sure that you haven't cheated, which is fair enough. You will never have a complete set of photos with a roundel and time in every one. You will never have every train running number. The Oyster record will only have ins and outs, not show every journey. But put together you should be able to provide enough evidence to pass an audit and answer any questions they may have. To collect all this evidence, I think you need two people on an attempt.

However having heard of Andi and Steve's problems with Berlin it makes you wonder, what will be sufficient evidence to satisfy GWR? I don't think the GWR rules have changed but they are being interpreted more strictly. Following the news of their Berlin rejection, I challenged Guinness about the practicalities of making a 16 hour video. All I got was a garbled response and no help or advice. From research I don't think there is any way to do this, without numerous spare batteries and memory cards and then you have remember to change them whilst logging and taking photos. I've also noticed there is a new name on the unhelpful responses from Guinness, so suspect it is all down to a new employee who doesn't really understand the nature of tube challenges. However that doesn't really help us.

ITFC, good luck with your GWR attempt but my final piece of advice would be to get a running mate, who can do half the work for you!
a new employee that quite frankly has a complaint against him I have filed one and will not rest until the person gets sacked!

User avatar
tubeguru
Site Administrator
Posts: 8841
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 22:08
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by tubeguru » 14 Aug 2017, 08:31

dstock17 wrote:
13 Aug 2017, 18:27
a new employee that quite frankly has a complaint against him I have filed one and will not rest until the person gets sacked!
I would argue that's not really the way to approach this, as none of us has no evidence that suggests a new person is in charge of this record attempt, just a random guess.

How would you like it if someone decided to make it their mission to lose you *your* job because you were doing your job?
One thing only do I know, and that is that I know nothing - Socrates.

Champion of bugger all, 2004 to 2018
Member of sweet FA

dstock17
Zone 4
Posts: 319
Joined: 14 Jan 2017, 20:08

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by dstock17 » 14 Aug 2017, 12:48

tubeguru wrote:
14 Aug 2017, 08:31
dstock17 wrote:
13 Aug 2017, 18:27
a new employee that quite frankly has a complaint against him I have filed one and will not rest until the person gets sacked!
I would argue that's not really the way to approach this, as none of us has no evidence that suggests a new person is in charge of this record attempt, just a random guess.

How would you like it if someone decided to make it their mission to lose you *your* job because you were doing your job?
it has been done to me so I have no sympathy for this guy in gwr he seems to be a bloke that is following a mandate then not explaining how certain other person got his ratified was there differance in his evidence I bet not so it's in a long line of injustices that I can complain not got the same treatment u can scoff Mr tubeguru but I'm right in this it's all bull shit and Guinness need to be purged of bad admin.

User avatar
tubeguru
Site Administrator
Posts: 8841
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 22:08
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by tubeguru » 14 Aug 2017, 16:28

dstock17 wrote:
13 Aug 2017, 18:27
it has been done to me so I have no sympathy for this guy in gwr he seems to be a bloke that is following a mandate then not explaining how certain other person got his ratified was there differance in his evidence I bet not so it's in a long line of injustices that I can complain not got the same treatment u can scoff Mr tubeguru but I'm right in this it's all bull shit and Guinness need to be purged of bad admin.
Well you crack on then. I'm sure everyone will thank you for it when the evil minion has been dispensed with, and replaced by someone equally as "bad".
One thing only do I know, and that is that I know nothing - Socrates.

Champion of bugger all, 2004 to 2018
Member of sweet FA

User avatar
Steeevooo
All Zones
Posts: 1068
Joined: 14 Jul 2005, 11:23
Location: Rainham, Essex

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by Steeevooo » 17 Aug 2017, 14:38

I thought that here would be as good a place as any to quote, in full, the appeal rejection email that I have just received from GWR in regards to mine and Andi's Berlin attempt:
Thank you for submitting the appeal of your records decision to Guinness World Records.


After a full Records Management Team review, we have to inform you that the rejection must stand.


The record the Fastest time to travel to all the Berlin U-Bahn metro stations is based on time and so it is absolutely imperative that we have a reliable, independent record of the time taken for the attempt.


The independence, professionalism and reliability of the timekeepers is explicit in the rules of the record are sent to all applicants for this title. The rules state that “…it is necessary to have two independent persons witness the beginning and the end of the record attempt…” and outline that the stopwatch for the timing of the attempt can only be in the possession of independent persons.


Your attempt only had one person and this person was not independent. An independent person is a professional that is not known to any of the challenge participants prior to the challenge attempt. Your sole timekeeper does not meet this criteria, thus there is no independent corroboration of the time taken for your attempt so we have no option but to reject your evidence.


We understand that it is not always easy to arrange for independent witnesses but this is a requirement across all of our records and gathering adequate proof is part of the challenge of record-breaking.


We ask for a variety of evidence to give applicants the best chance of providing sufficient proof that they attempted the record in line with the rules of the attempt.


Unfortunately, your remaining evidence is not sufficient in itself to prove the time taken. You do not have video of the entire attempt that we can reference the time taken from. The time-stamped photographs and videos themselves are not enough to prove the time taken as the data files can be edited or the camera manually set to certain times, whilst photographs and videos that contain clocks can be taken on different dates.


The absence of the independent verification of the time taken, as required by the rules of the record, means that we cannot accept your attempt as a record. We must apply the rules fairly in all cases and it would not be fair to the current holder and other applicants to approve an attempt that we cannot be confident follows our rules.


We understand how disappointing this must be for you after all of the effort you both put in and we hope you will be able to attempt a record in future. However, for the reasons above we are unable to consider this case further and this is the final decision of the Records Management Team.

I think the paragraph that annoys me the most is that beginning "Unfortunately, your remaining evidence...". They complete disregard all of the other evidence that we provided - the log books, the independent witness statements, the train numbers etc. They really do give the impression that unless they have a full video of the attempt and truly independent witnesses as timekeepers (i.e. GWR employees???) that they will not even consider anything else that you offer to them.

I'm pretty much done with records attempts anywhere now.

dstock17
Zone 4
Posts: 319
Joined: 14 Jan 2017, 20:08

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by dstock17 » 17 Aug 2017, 19:21

and me i use simply replied did Adham Fisher do a full video and its bull shit

michael_churchill
Zone 5
Posts: 567
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 16:30
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Re: Guinness world record regulations

Post by michael_churchill » 17 Aug 2017, 22:02

Steeevooo wrote:
17 Aug 2017, 14:38
I thought that here would be as good a place as any to quote, in full, the appeal rejection email that I have just received from GWR in regards to mine and Andi's Berlin attempt:
Thank you for submitting the appeal of your records decision to Guinness World Records.


After a full Records Management Team review, we have to inform you that the rejection must stand.


The record the Fastest time to travel to all the Berlin U-Bahn metro stations is based on time and so it is absolutely imperative that we have a reliable, independent record of the time taken for the attempt.


The independence, professionalism and reliability of the timekeepers is explicit in the rules of the record are sent to all applicants for this title. The rules state that “…it is necessary to have two independent persons witness the beginning and the end of the record attempt…” and outline that the stopwatch for the timing of the attempt can only be in the possession of independent persons.


Your attempt only had one person and this person was not independent. An independent person is a professional that is not known to any of the challenge participants prior to the challenge attempt. Your sole timekeeper does not meet this criteria, thus there is no independent corroboration of the time taken for your attempt so we have no option but to reject your evidence.


We understand that it is not always easy to arrange for independent witnesses but this is a requirement across all of our records and gathering adequate proof is part of the challenge of record-breaking.


We ask for a variety of evidence to give applicants the best chance of providing sufficient proof that they attempted the record in line with the rules of the attempt.


Unfortunately, your remaining evidence is not sufficient in itself to prove the time taken. You do not have video of the entire attempt that we can reference the time taken from. The time-stamped photographs and videos themselves are not enough to prove the time taken as the data files can be edited or the camera manually set to certain times, whilst photographs and videos that contain clocks can be taken on different dates.


The absence of the independent verification of the time taken, as required by the rules of the record, means that we cannot accept your attempt as a record. We must apply the rules fairly in all cases and it would not be fair to the current holder and other applicants to approve an attempt that we cannot be confident follows our rules.


We understand how disappointing this must be for you after all of the effort you both put in and we hope you will be able to attempt a record in future. However, for the reasons above we are unable to consider this case further and this is the final decision of the Records Management Team.

I think the paragraph that annoys me the most is that beginning "Unfortunately, your remaining evidence...". They complete disregard all of the other evidence that we provided - the log books, the independent witness statements, the train numbers etc. They really do give the impression that unless they have a full video of the attempt and truly independent witnesses as timekeepers (i.e. GWR employees???) that they will not even consider anything else that you offer to them.

I'm pretty much done with records attempts anywhere now.
Now I would read that to mean that they would accept the timing by independent witnesses to verify the time taken. If you don't get those witnesses, the video of the entire attempt is the only other acceptable evidence because time-stamped photos and partial videos can be faked. Then you need to provide a reasonable amount of evidence like photos and log books to prove that the challenge was completed to the rules, and that you didn't just go round to the pub for a few hours.

Anyway, who needs their names listed in a kid's annual? You know and we believe what you did.

Post Reply