How much should a support team be allowed to do? - LOCKED

[hwolge]

It seems like the extensive use of support teams to actually improve performance has come in vogue. Just consider this, if you have a support/point man at every change that is capable of delaying the departure of a train with up to 30 seconds, that would probably, statistically, improve the overall time with around half an hour (let's say saving 5 minutes at 5 different times in a day). Does Guinness subscribe to such behaviour? Don't they care? Or does it seem so unlikely that they ignore the issue? I wonder...

So what do you all think?

[greatkingrat]

I doubt Guinness have thought about the issue at all.

Personally I think delaying trains by holding doors open is gaining an unfair advantage. I have no problem with support teams providing food or information about delays etc.

[palkanetoijala31]

Well on our attempt yesterday Kevin (Going Underground) stayed with us the whole day and i think he held up 2 trains that we might not have got or close.I believe its good i have a cunning plan for my next attempt Sarah is becoming a Special Police officer with the Transport Police so im going to have her stop trains for me lol.

[editorsfoot]

i have a cunning plan for my next attempt Sarah is becoming a Special Police officer with the Transport Police so im going to have her stop trains for me lol.

Im not too sure how Police officers can hold up trains, particularly if they are not in uniform. Although as a special myself I could ask all my mates to come and support me, having police holding up trains at every change, or am I having a w@veform moment?

Actually I dont think support teams should hold up trains delibrately, sweet talking drivers is fine though.

[joy54]

Whenever I have been on a support team and have been asked to hold a train if it has been feasible I have, I would say there would be a limit on the length of time a support member should hold a train up for but not that they shouldn't hold trains up. Obviously if you had people holding trains for 5 minutes at places like the Mill Hill East branch etc. it would be going too far in my opinion but holding trains up for a little amount of time has always happened I think and most record breaking times have had support teams who probably held at least one train up for them.

[hwolge]

Well on our attempt yesterday Kevin (Going Underground) stayed with us the whole day and i think he held up 2 trains that we might not have got or close.

But an equally interesting question is in how many cases he was in position, i.e prepared, to hold a door?

Assuming he actually saved you twice, that would probably mean anywhere from 5-15 minutes in the end...

BTW I don't mean anything personal with this! And I admire Kevin for sacrificing himself this way, just to help others to beat the record that he potentially holds...

I doubt Guinness have thought about the issue at all.

Personally I think delaying trains by holding doors open is gaining an unfair advantage. I have no problem with support teams providing food or information about delays etc.

I agree. Had Guinness thought of this, they would certainly had banned it. I think the whole idea is to travel the system "as is", otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

BTW How do you guys feel about delaying the first train in the morning deliberately? Given the fierce competition and predominantly Amersham-Heathrow routes, this becomes more and more an issue.

[jonny]

Whilst I understand that holding up trains is a practise that has always been used in tube challenging I wouldn't say that makes it 'ok'.

It is probably against railway Byelaws and stuff, which would surely be enough for GWR to take your record away if they found out?
On another note, it is essentially deliberately abnormalizing the otherwise 'normal' public service that GWR require in their rules.

That said, I would happily do it myself anyway...

[palkanetoijala31]

Does holding up a door diving through it and getting several nail prints from the door in ur hand count Really i technically shouldnt have held the door at morden for over a minute it was extremely naughty of me especially as Steven and Matt took the soft option of a bus as well.

Kevin in the early bit was actually having a trouble time getting ahead of us anyway i quite happily give up a whole day if he wants the favour returned someday.

[jonny]

In my personal opinion, holding the door for a whole minute is essentially just vandalism of the railway service. I don't see much harm in holding it for a few seconds whilst someone runs down the stairs, though.

[joy54]

In the course of our journey yesterday no door holding got us ahead. The Morden connection was counter acted by a Victoria line train shortly afterwards being replaced by a signalling train meaning a 5 minute wait at Stockwell and then at Brixton another wait to go out on the same train as we came in on, the next Morden connection would of made this. The few seconds hold at Finchley Central was counter acted by a 9 minute wait at High Barnet the next train would of made that. I feel if its a short amount of time fine but any longer and I wouldn't agree with it. Of course if all the records had been broken with no support holding the doors then fine but I feel we should to keep this fair and comparable. If we want all record attempts to be the same maybe we should limit the number of people doing it as well as I attempted to break the record doing pictures, witness statements and logging myself, other teams have people doing each of these jobs and people running ahead holding trains etc.

[Going Underground]

To be honest my support yesterday made absolutely no difference to the teams time.....

I think the biggest benefit is holding the bags while the team do the station to station to runs......

From personal experience I know that running is much more comfortable without a rucksack on your back...

As for holding trains you have to be sensible, it the team are arriving on an adjoining platform and they can quickly make the connection within a few seconds then I wouldn't have a problem.....

Take last night for example where I knew the team were at Gunnersbury, but no way would I have held the Ealing Broadway train for 3 minutes.......

[Barton Blue]

I doubt Guinness have thought about the issue at all.

Personally I think delaying trains by holding doors open is gaining an unfair advantage. I have no problem with support teams providing food or information about delays etc.

I have to say i agree 100% with this!

If someone achieves a GWR on their own, as opposed to a group of say 3 or 4 with a support team of 2 or 3 then it is a much greater achievement. As far as London Underground is concerned, holding/obstructing doors is an absolute no-no and we run the risk of losing any goodwill that might exist with staff for Challengers by advertising the fact that is has happened/ is going to happen on this site.

This is a little bit of a controversial topic, but i think that we should openly condemn the practise, not only to make it a flat playing surface for all challengers, either alone or in a group, but to also show responsibility to London Underground.

[Root]

I think a support team should be able to do whatever the challengers want or need them to do. There is nothing in the Guinness rules that even mentions a support team, and regardless of whatever consensus is reached on this forum, it is not binding.

Holding the doors of a train is, however, against the LU bylaws. If the challengers or the support team feel comfortable breaking the bylaws (and possibly being ejected from the network), then they can certainly hold the doors and be completely within the GWR rules.

Indeed, this also applies to the first train of the day. While it might be against the spirit of the challenge, it is not against the rules themselves, so it is permitted - or at least, it is as permitted as holding any door. It must be up to each team to decide whether they want to do it - personally I have not and will not, but I shan't criticise a team that does.

[joy54]

Is running to catch trains going to banned as that is against Railway Byelaws in stations and of course some people are faster runners than others so to keep a fair playing ground maybe walking should be the only speed allowed? There is never going to be an equal playing field, team sizes vary and qualities in that team do as well, some have fast runners or people with more knowledge etc. People holding doors really shouldn't be an issue, rarely is it the difference between people getting the record and them not. If we are going to try and converge towards a fair playing field it will just bring the whole point of competition down.

[snudge27]

Having thought about the doors issue, I think it's all swings and roundabouts. Say for example your route is this:

1500 - Leave Wimbledon
1505 - Arrive Morden
1506 - Leave Morden
1516 - Arrive Stockwell
1516.5 - Leave Stockwell

If you're late at Morden and your support team need to hold the doors for you for say 30s your route then becomes:

1506 - Arrive Morden
1506.5 - Leave Morden
1516.5 - Arrive Stockwell (miss connection)

I think I'm purposefully exaggerating things like the length of the hold and the immediacy of the effect - but my point is that if you keep putting trains back by maybe 10s a time by holding doors, it eventually catches up with you when you need a tight connection...